Mantic drums up Project Pandora

[fastolfrus]

They haven't even attempted to change the elf and dark elf aesthetic! 

Didn't the lef/dark elf issue come in with TSR before GW were in existence?

As for GW cloning, it's probably just an economic fact of life for UK sales.
The only stuff that has had high volume sales for the past few years has been GW.

Personally I liked Starshop Troopers, but Mongoose didn't get enough market share to keep production going. The new Mantic Corporation figures will probably join my ST marine forces, possibly as colonial garrisons. I'm hoping that the insect race that's listed on their plans will be suitable to join the bugs.

The space rats look like they may be possibles for VSF, especially the figures with gas masks.

[fastolfrus]

What are their games like?

Undecided on the fantasy and Sf rules, they are straightforward and easy enough to play, but I like Chipco Fantasy 3rd and Laserburn.
On the plus side, the fantasy rules are (were?) available as a free PDF download so you don't need a mortgage to try them out.

But the Dwarf King's Hold boardgames are a different issue. Like those - slightly reminiscent of 1st edition Space Hulk before they started adding on the expansions and campaign book etc. Prefer the Dead Rising one, but that's mainly because I like the undead figures and don't really like the orcs, rules play quite well, fairly balanced but challenging, so hoping the new game might be Dwarf King's in Space.

[matakishi]

Liking/not liking a company's stuff is fine but can we keep the rebuttals to the views and not the authors please.

I find Mantic's rules hideous in the extreme but they are free so anyone can suck them and see.
I might buy some space rats but generally the GW derivative stuff leaves me cold too. On a positive note, Mantic manage to actually produce their stuff and sell it which certain other plastic 'manufacturers' could learn from.
Good luck to them I say.

[fastolfrus]

I find Mantic's rules hideous in the extreme but they are free so anyone can suck them and see.

Not sure that I would go so far as hideous.
Abstract, perhaps even bizarre. Reminiscent of something quite old (thinking Dover Patrol era but I can't quite remember what) quite boardgame-ish in a sense. Seem very formulaic. But the important thing is, being free everyone can decide for themselves without any need for investment, apart from printing. Which I do like, even if I don't like the rules. I also like other companies who do extracts and free samples or "Lite" sets.

[Hat Guy]

I've had a lot of interest in Mantic stuff at work from players of Warhammer Fantasy, with the new edition requiring a huge amount of figures, Mantic is holding an appeal for rounding out the rank-and-file.

[tnjrp]

Not sure that I would go so far as hideous

Me neither, but OTOH I would be very hard pressed to find anything nice to say about them either so I probably should STFU then

I also like other companies who do extracts and free samples or "Lite" sets.

Which would be almost everybody these days, of course. I'm quite sure it does pay to make the first fix free, but I'm not quite so sure it makes sense to spend time concocting that fix in the 1st place. Probably does since vast majority of miniature companies do offer some kind of rules with their minis.

[Patrick Lefèvre]

My problem with them is their utter lack of imagination and shameless cashing in on GW i.p. I mean, the first unique race they've done is... Skaven, IN SPACE! I've had some of their stuff in the past and it is just a poor alone of GW stuff, with the only advantage being cheap. Guess what, I don't buy bargain bucket food either. Mantic would be fine if they didn't have such a cynical copy-GW policy. They haven't even attempted to change the elf and dark elf aesthetic!  

They haven't exactly been re-inventing the fantasy and Sci-Fi genre either: Tolkien, Lucas, Verne, Poe and numerous others have given them the idea.
And those have been digging in myths and folklore the world over.
As I've said before, you can only make so many versions of something before they start to look alike so why try to hide that wich is obvious.
Don't get me wrong, the only models I do like from Mantic are the Undead, Corporation and the Elves.
Both Dwarfraces aren't my cup of tea in any way and the same thing goes for the Orcs and the Marauders.
I'm no fan of the Veer-Myn just in the way as I'm no fan of Skaven either.
I've considered the Forge Fathers but decided against them since Warpath isn't supported in our gamingclub, I can't find a good substitute for them in 40K and I don't like 40K all that much to begin with.
You're right, their mayor advantage is their prices when you take the wealth of variety in consideration that GW gives you.
But why cram so many bits in a sprue that you don't really need, they only bulge out your bitsbox, end up in the bin later and when you got all your models ranked up on the table you're to busy rolling dice and outsmarting the bloke on the other side to pay attention to details on models.
I don't like all that Mantic tries to sell me but I can appreciate their effort to present me with a cheap alternative.
As for them riding on the back of GW... Games Workshop started out as a mailorder company that sold models and rules for Dungeons and Dragons for years before they started cooking up their own things, you've got to start somewhere and if you can do a bit of shameless looting then that's fine and when you can rise above your 'teacher' afterwards then that's great as long as you don't forget where you came from like in GW's case, they wanted a cheap alternative for D&D too and now charge you a king's ransom for a box or blister.

[Brummie]

I think that to an extent the argument 'Mantic rip of GW' is pretty invalid.

What strikes me is it appears many gamers are quite happy to purchase models which are EXACT COPIES of GW stuff from say Avatars of War, and only so much as mutter at how similar/the same it looks.

However when Mantic rears its head, people are cursing at them how they are rip offs of GW.

I personally think people would complain less if they were exact copies!

I would also argue against Patricks point over that things will eventually be 'the same'. I agree fantasy is pretty limited depending on what direction you look at it from, but I'd argue that its rather the buyers who are to blame more then the companies. Most gamers have a weird drawback where they will want something 'different' for differences sake, but will then not purchase it when its made and instead use their money to purchase the same old miniatures with a similar look to another range whilst bitterly complaining about how un-imaginative the business is.

If Mantic created anything different they'd probably be bust by now. The only company I know of that had popularity and was unique and squandered it was Rackham. But look at whats happened to say 'Dwarf Tales' etc, fantastic miniatures, very different by comparison, but they have gone bust! Probably due to folks to afraid of them being outside the mainstream.

[manatic]

I think that to an extent the argument 'Mantic rip of GW' is pretty invalid.

What strikes me is it appears many gamers are quite happy to purchase models which are EXACT COPIES of GW stuff from say Avatars of War, and only so much as mutter at how similar/the same it looks.

However when Mantic rears its head, people are cursing at them how they are rip offs of GW.

I think it's a fair argument. To be honest, with the exception of space dwarves and space skaven, Mantic seem to be going for a 1:1 match with GW regarding army construction etc. While I appreciate financial realities, it just makes me sad that Mantic - originally advertised as a major effort to really shake up the miniature gaming world - is turning out to be nothing more than a company pushing out disappointingly mediocre, unoriginal not-WHFB and not-40K models. As far as business plans go, "like GW, just cheaper" is probably sound. From a creative industry viewpoint, well...

Avatars of War - in my view they're not even unoriginal, but simply straight conceptual and stylistical copies. Let's not even go there

[Patrick Lefèvre]

@ Brummie: You can still get Dwarf Wars from West Wind  
I love Avatars of War, I've got that Herald of Pestilence in my Nurgle army and they're bringing out a range of Chaos Warriors to match the ones by GW only slightly cheaper, same thing goes for their Dwarf berzerkers btw.
With 'the same' I'd mean more in the way of: an orc armed with an axe or sword or club will still be an orc with a handweapon, whoever sculpted him and whatever brand you like.
GW has set a trend here that they make some very nice orcs and have inspired lot's of others to make funny bits (eg. Micro Arts Studio) to convert them, who in turn take a profit out of GW but I hear no complaints here just as you point out with the AoW minis.
Maybe I'm wrong but a lot of people around the globe gladly grumble and spit on Games Workshop and their pricing policy but lash out at those who come out with cheap lookalikes of 'lesser quality' to said gamer's benefice.
You're also right in the fact that gamers seem to have a 'limited creativity' ,no offence, wich seem to come out of fear, sounds nuts but it ain't.
I'll explain: let's get back to that aforementioned orc with handweapon and give him a nice shield, I'll bet that at this point 85% thinks of the 'classic' GW greenskinned orc.
Otherworld Miniatures makes pigfaced orcs, armed in pretty much the same way, get a bunch of those and give them a brown skintone... You'll be explaining and making excuses for yourself more than you're throwing dice to anybody who passes the table, next time you'll think twice before packing up your creative labour of love to a game cause you'll be afraid to repeat an evening like the last time when you fielded them.
I've been there, I've got a dwarf army, using the rules for GW dwarves but I've got mainly Kallistra's Pygmees for miniatures: Witchdoctors= engineers, blowpipes=Thunderers, elephant= cannon, etc....
Twice I took them to a tournament, now they're sitting on a shelve gathering dust.
"Yeah, but you used another brand mate so you can't blame people" I hear some think.
Fair, example 2: Once I bought a reasonable amount of GW's Sisters of Battle, removed or defiled all Imperial iconography and fielded them as the Sisters of Slaanesh Chaos Marines... same problem across the table.
So exit excess creativity and farewell to nice companies like Rackham, I'll remember you with fondness  
I can't blame that sculptors the world over make miniatures for the masses that look 'the same' because when they dare to stick their head out of the box somebody will chop it off besides getting sewed by the Big 'Un from Notthingham when their sculpts start to look too much like their stuff.
So it's no surpise an Imperial Guardsman from GW and a Coorporation soldier from Mantic looks largely the same.
I can make a list, if all you people want, of so called 'rip-offs' and it's up to you wich ones deserve a place in your collection despite the cost, just don't call the ones you don't like 'poo' or something because it's rude and childish and doesn't belong on a forum open to an adult level of discution.

[Erny]

Your problem was probably less to do with using proxies for dwarves and more to do with using miniatures that some people find rather offensive. That and expecting creativity in the tournament sceen.

Mantic have yet to produce any must haves for me but if I was just starting I'd be mighty tempted by their price, a good place to be in this market.

[Patrick Lefèvre]

I don't think those pygmees are THAT offencive, they dont make nasty handsigns as far as I can see 
I just tought they were funny, luckily most people at our gamingclub are openminded about these things, most of us use proxies the whole time.
I've got in my whole Nurgle Deamons army only 2 kinds of GW models, all the rest comes from somewhere else.
The Nurglings alone are good for 5 different brands, the Plaguebearers are from Heresy, Great Unclean One's an old Rackham mini, etc...
If I were to build a 40K Imperial Guard army I'd defenitly take the Warlord Games Brittish from the Anglo-Zulu wars, Ratlings'd be the Kindred from Hasslefree and the Ogryns from Scibor.
I just buy and paint what I like and if they're cheap AND pretty then so much the better.
The major problem my opponents seemed to have with my 'Dwarves' was that they have no armour even though I've never fielded a single unit as, let's say, Iron Breakers since it didn't fit my view, I wanted to step away from the typical dour Dwarf in heavy armour and to prove that every force can have a funny side.
I've found sollutions to warmachines for them up to the Anvil of Doom and the Gyrocopter and I was about to start a unit of tunnelers under the command of Lara Croft (archeologist, digsite, digging tunnels, tunnelers, see?) but I simply gave up.
I'll see if I can post some pics of them in another tread.

[rwwin]

Mantic has put up some new shots of the space sk..erm Veer-myn on thier blog.  Not a greast deal of detail on the pic, but at least their painted now:

[tnjrp]

Tripped on this review of the game on TMP:
http://www.play-board-games.com/project-pandora-grim-cargo-review/