Second crusade Knights needed

[Atheling]

Just as an afterthought, there's also Saxon Miniatures Spanish; but they do look very Spanish.

http://saxonminiatures.com/product/castillian-armoured-infantry/

Darrell.

[jauntyharrison]

If only the Perrry brothers could repackage their Crusader cavalry to offer 3 fellows with long sleeved hauberks, instead of 1 long sleeved knight with 2 Short sleeved buddies per pack. T'would be a merrier world.

Perhaps you could find someone who only wants to collect Hastings-era cavalry, and trade then your unwanted Perry short sleeves for his Perry Long sleeves.

[Atheling]

If only the Perrry brothers could repackage their Crusader cavalry to offer 3 fellows with long sleeved hauberks, instead of 1 long sleeved knight with 2 Short sleeved buddies per pack. T'would be a merrier world.

Easy enough to add by filing and then applying a layer of ProCreate and sculpting some mail At least i hope it is as I'll be doing just that to the arms and legs of most of the knights!! 

Just on a historical note too- mail was often doubled ie twice the thickness on important body parts of this era- mind, my source for this is Terry Jones, Crusades series!!

Darrell.

[Paul]

Just on a historical note too- mail was often doubled ie twice the thickness on important body parts of this era- mind, my source for this is Terry Jones, Crusades series!!

Mentioned by Usamah  (c.1127 )who describes a Frankish knight wearing "double mail" who was hit multiple blows in the back by a Turkish warrior with a sword but remained unharmed..
Carpini 1240(John of Plano-Carpini, an envoy to the Mongols)who noted in his book, Ystoria Mongalorum* Chapter VIII, ,  that the Mongols quench-hardened their arrowheads to make them more likely to penetrate armour. He recommends that knights wear “double mail” to protect them from such arrows.
 ...and in French sources, "double mail" is called either,  haubert doublier, haubert a maille double, or haubert clavey de double maille.

Exactly what is meant by "double mail"?
1.Mail made from links that are twice as heavy as regular mail
2.Mail with links that have been fastened with two rivets instead of one
3.Two separate mail hauberks, one worn on top of the other (a light layer of padding would be required between the layers to prevent the links from binding with each other)
4.Mail made from smaller links, such that twice as many links are required
5.Mail made from a different weave, e.g. 6-in-1 or 8-in-2, such that twice as many links are required
6.Mail that is tailored such that the garment overlaps and is fastened at the side  resulting in two layers of mail protecting the front (similar to the shoulder mail of the Roman lorica hamata)


*available as a download.

[Paul]

aha...and again,

Usamah Ibn-Munquidh about wearing a kazaghand (Jazerant )constructed of two layers of mail during an incident when Saladin admonishes him for not donning his armour before a battle. He replies, "By Allah I can not put on anything more. We are in the early part of the night and my kazaghand is furnished with two coats of mail, one on top of the other. As soon as I see the enemy I shall put it on." After the battle he demonstrates the armour's construction to Saladin. "I pulled out my knife and ripped it at the breast and disclosed the side of the two coats of mail. The kazaghand enclosed a Frankish coat of mail extending to the bottom of it, with another coat of mail on top of it reaching as far as the middle. Both were equipped with the proper linings, felt pads, silk stuffing (al-lasin) and rabbits' hair."

[Atheling]

Mentioned by Usamah  (c.1127 )who describes a Frankish knight wearing "double mail" who was hit multiple blows in the back by a Turkish warrior with a sword but remained unharmed..
Carpini 1240(John of Plano-Carpini, an envoy to the Mongols)who noted in his book, Ystoria Mongalorum* Chapter VIII, ,  that the Mongols quench-hardened their arrowheads to make them more likely to penetrate armour. He recommends that knights wear “double mail” to protect them from such arrows.
 ...and in French sources, "double mail" is called either,  haubert doublier, haubert a maille double, or haubert clavey de double maille.

Exactly what is meant by "double mail"?
1.Mail made from links that are twice as heavy as regular mail
2.Mail with links that have been fastened with two rivets instead of one
3.Two separate mail hauberks, one worn on top of the other (a light layer of padding would be required between the layers to prevent the links from binding with each other)
4.Mail made from smaller links, such that twice as many links are required
5.Mail made from a different weave, e.g. 6-in-1 or 8-in-2, such that twice as many links are required
6.Mail that is tailored such that the garment overlaps and is fastened at the side  resulting in two layers of mail protecting the front (similar to the shoulder mail of the Roman lorica hamata)


*available as a download.

From what I've managed to glean it's two layers of mail.

It would make sense to have the odd 'link' holding the two layers ion place so it seem logical that this is what they would do.

Darrell.

[SteveBurt]

Crusader Miniatures have a whole range of later crusaders that might fit the bill.

[Cubs]

mind, my source for this is Terry Jones, Crusades series!!

Darrell.

Loved that TV series and the accompanying book, it's what got me reading about the Crusades in the first place. It suffers from accuracy issues (as do a lot of things done for the TV), but it's entertaining and accessible, which is exactly what you want to get you interested in something.

[Atheling]

Loved that TV series and the accompanying book, it's what got me reading about the Crusades in the first place. It suffers from accuracy issues (as do a lot of things done for the TV), but it's entertaining and accessible, which is exactly what you want to get you interested in something.

I'm reading Sacred Sword, Jihad in the Holy Land, James Waterson which has a Forward written by Terry Jones (he attacks the Western Military Industrial Complex).

It's a great book for really getting a feel of the Islamic perspective of the Crusades which is oft dismissive at the start!

Darrell.

[midismirnoff]

Crusader Miniatures have a whole range of later crusaders that might fit the bill.

They are a bit too late, if this can be of any interest, now that the topic evolved into far more interesting matters. I was looking for pre-surcoat post-shortsleeve mail, Phrigian helmet, flat top shield. However keep up the debate about this peculiar uniformology problem, I'm learning a lot!

[Atheling]

This may well be of interest to you; Black Tree Design are having a 30% off Sale on their Second Crusade range (Islamic forces included):

http://eoeorbisuk.com/collections/feudal?page=1

Darrell.

[Lagartija Mike]

You're best bet is to mod them yourself from existing ranges. It's an interesting period but an undeserved one. Remember that our concept of a Second Crusade knight is more stylized than the practical, on the ground reality: there's room for a wide range of figures.

[midismirnoff]

Thanks, I've seen the sale, but there's no cavalry. I'll make a huge order sooner or later,as I've seen the delivery is quick and the communications are ok.

[Paint Pig]

Easy enough to add by filing and then applying a layer of ProCreate and sculpting some mail At least i hope it is as I'll be doing just that to the arms and legs of most of the knights!! 

Just on a historical note too- mail was often doubled ie twice the thickness on important body parts of this era- mind, my source for this is Terry Jones, Crusades series!!

Darrell.

Bloody 'ell long time since I heard of that bit o telly, had quite the (expensive) effect on me. Is it still available I had a VHS (look it up kiddies) copy, would love to see it again.

[midismirnoff]

Hi everyone!
Codsticker just showed me this post where a baron wars plastic set is forestalled by Conquest Games boss. It seems we'll  have to wait till 2017 though. In the while I'll get through my crave with their forecoming Spanish/Italo-norman heads upgrade (resin, grabbed up on Crisis, not it the catalogue yet) :

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?403068-28-mm-historical-plastic-kits-a-complete-listing&p=7563468&viewfull=1#post7563468