looking for info on the ROC military

[commissarmoody]

Another sleepless night has led me to think of another distraction.
Can any provide me with information about he Republic of Chines (Taiwans) Military?
Capabilities, over all rating say compared to US and PLA forces.

I know they had there butts handed to them in the civil war, but I am looking for more 90s to modern action. Or at least info. Thank you

[commissarmoody]

I am guessing unit structure would be a mirror image of similar US units. But if I am wrong let me know.

[tomcat51]

I always start with Wikipedia. They appear to use American helicopters, some old American tanks and APC's like the M60 and M113, plus their own indiginously produced newer vehicles. They also use a very wide array of small arms, not sure what their main rifle is. The Wiki page also has a link to their website, which is also in English. You couldn't do a modern ROC army as I'm not sure anyone does their current equipment, but you could do an older version using American units.

[tom_aargau]

Have a look at the China Defense Blog.
http://china-defense.blogspot.ch
While focus is on PLA and navy, there is a lot of information on the Taiwanese army (search in top left corner).
Also, provides lot of background information and news.
Franz

[Arrigo]

Well, they lost the mainland but stopped the PLA from taking the outlying islands. Also the Civil War was not one sided as some one want us to believe. So no they did not get their butts handed. Technically the last battle of the Civil War, Kinmen was a ROC victory. and a bloody big one.

Now let's move forward. They are not a copy of the US military despite their class A uniform being strikingly similar... right now they are in the mid of reorganization moving from division to brigade so things are in constant flux. By the end of the year all division are supposed ot have been converted into brigades (under combat corps HQ, three in number, 6, 8, 10).

A reasonable Order of Battle confirmed by my local sources is:

6th Corps: 1 Armor, 2 Mech, 7 light infantry brigades and 7 reserve infantry brigades
8th Corps: 1 Armor, 1 Mech, 1 motorized (on CM-32), 5 Infantry, 7 reserve infantry brigades
10th Corps: 1 Armor, 1 Mech, 1 motorized, 6 Infantry, 10 Reserve infantry brigades.

There is an additional armor brigade in the outlying islands.

The ROCMC has an additonal three brigades. Their are Mechanized but the main APC the the AAV7A1. Armor support is provided by M48A5 (CM-12, M48H turret on original A3 hull)

According to the Military balance the number of infantry brigade is supposed to be smaller, but on the other hand this OoB has been verified by a ROC officer.

Battalion organization tend to be triangular rather than square as in the US. It is similar to the ROAD TO&E of the 60-70. Equipment is a mix of US and locally manufactured and designed weapons (and they have also some Mirage 2000A (dowgraded from the 2000C of the AdlA) from France.

Main MBT is the M60A3 and the M48H Brave Tiger (an hybrid between an M60 hull and an M48A5 turret). APCs are M113 (both usu designed and the indigenous variant CM-21) and the new CM-32 wheeled APC. They use cadillac gage V-150 commando for recon role together with modernized (a lot) M-41. SPG are the usual combination of M109 and M110 (plus several older M108 with turrets removed and replaced by an open mounted 155mm gun. Attack helicopter are AH-1 and AH-64E. Transport helicopters are UH-1H and UH-60 for tactical lift and CH-47 for heavy lift.

As far capabilities goes it is fair play. Even the consicript tend to have some basic motivation, and this is going up in reaction to PRC rhetoric. The problem is the officer corps. A lot of them are the equivalent of ROTC graduates in the US usually serving 6 years and retiring with a Captain rank. The career ones are a mixed bag. Often they are from long serving KMT families. three of four generation of service, they are well trained, often with US military schools on their CV but they tend to take the job for granted. I will not say they are stupid, but they seems lazy. Especially compared to their PLA counterparts. My observations are based on those (both sides) doing PhD in London and thus being a selected crop. Yet it is also reinforced by observation of a British officers from his own experience with ROC and PLA officers in Leavenworth.

They are not curious by nature, do not like challenges, and stick to their comfort zones. They do things by the book and are not encourage to innovate. On the other hand they are less exposed to 'schizoid training' and constant box ticking as in the US Army and they are not saddled with a crap thing like the Stryker (or a good thing used in a crap way). Probably as troop morale I would give the ROC an edge if they are defending Taiwan, but I will give an edge to the PLA in brilliant leadership. If you want numeric rates... with the caveat in the end it is based on my own assessment of the people I met....

US Army: 7 (if properly trained for intensive operations, otherwise 5, some officers are so enmeshed in COIN and other non military stuff that they cannot think in combat terms... and some do not understand the army anymore... few weeks ago I spoke with a retired US Army cpatain who think the US army engineers have only AVLB, not even ribbon bridges... but his army career was just Iraq and only a little bit of Iraq....)
ROC: 5 for the regulars, 4 for the reserve
PLA: 6 for the top tier units (airborne, air assault, Amphibious, selected tank/mech) 5 for the bulk of the army (the PLA is concentrating  the best people in selected quick response unit, but some of these are also mech/tank ones, rather than just light/airmobile).

Any specific questions just ask 

[commissarmoody]

Thanks Tomcat51 and Tom_aargau looking into the wik and checking out the China blog.


And thanks Arrigo, I thought this would get your attention. 
 I started cramming all the info I can find online about the civil war era today so a I apologize for under rating the ROC forces from that era.

I was thinking of going Mico Armor conflict of  the ROC defending against a fictional modern invasion in the current era. I was also debating on using some of my 28mm figs for some skirmish style actions. So platoon, squad, company and battalion level TO&E's would really be helpful. if you can find them that is.

Do you know of any on who makes the CM-32? Its pretty new and nitch so I would be surprised if some one does.
 And would any of the current ranges of 28mm figs work for ROC forces? I was debating on panting up some of my Empress 28 modern US or USMC. Do you think they will work?

And yes I know all about how the US military works. I was a Para-trooper in the 82nd up until the end of 2008. I have experienced some great leadership, and some not so great. But I will say, that I have ran into some dummies before I got out who are convinced that we will never have another conventional war. 

[tomcat51]

[ I have ran into some dummies before I got out who are convinced that we will never have another conventional war. 


[/quote]

I tend to be a dummy that agrees with that in part. A large scale conventional war between peer forces is too costly in my opinion, given the interconnected nature of the worlds large economies. I wouldn't rule it out because you never know how things will change, but I think we will likely have lots of smaller regional wars with interested parties supporting them in various ways. I ca't see many Western armies getting involved in anything but small interventions and police actions. The British Armed Forces would be incapable of carrying out anything on the scale of Desert Storm again anyway.

Of course, I would be interested to hear other peoples opinion on this, there's a certain military advisor on this site who I'm sure has a different and more educated opinion.

Anyhow, back to ROC, I'm sure US forces could proxy as Taiwanese soldiers. Heroics and Ros have a Taiwan section in thier modern forces, but only a single aircraft in it. Maybe they plan to do more in the future.

[Arrigo]

The people at H&R asked me to get picture of the CM-11 and CM-32 that I duly (actually that my ROCAF friend provided, thanks ot one of his colleague from the army who is a armor officer...) provided. Thus I am assuming they are on the way... I will send them a mail to ask.

Tank company organization, if it has  not changed, is:

2 HQ tanks,
3 Platoons of 4 tanks each.

Three line companies per battalion.

Mech infantry is still 4 tracks per platoon.

Can send request for specific information, but the ROC MoD has quite strict classification for order of battle info...


Throwing a personal pitch here... but my friend Mitchell Land did a good map based game (I and my cross straits advisers helped a bit too) called Next War: Taiwan.  It cover an hypothetical invasion in good detail. You have also the air and naval war covered.

About the dummies... my experience with the British Forces is that part of their lack of capability to conduct large scale operations is more self inflicted than a product of economic situation. They simply messed up with their force structure and make some extremely dangerous assumption. It is a circle, you assume conventional war is not going to happen... so you structure yourself for different task (and in the British case quite badly with a lot of dead end programs).  By the way if I am a the military advisor...I am a consultant... (and full time War Studies teaching fellow). Being a consultant means that I am listened only if I provide advice they want to hear...    Plus and advisor is permanently paid... I am paid by project... 

 
 

[commissarmoody]

Again I am putting my foot in my mouth when it comes to the "Dummies" comment. I apologize. And to avoid derailing this post I will leave it at that. Even though I would love to debate the subject of the likely hood of other future conventional conflicts. 

Now back to the fictional conventional conflict at hand. 

 I have never heard of Heroics and Ros so I will drop them a line.
And will look into the Next War: Taiwan thing. I want to be able to do the big picture and small platoon and squad level skirmish.
Do they fallow the 4 man section like the US, with a riflemen, Grenader, SAW and Team leader?

Thank you for all the Info so far Arrigo. I can understand Taiwan wanting to keep their military info a secret.

[Arrigo]

I just fired a mail to the National Defense University. Let's see what happens. It was also a good remind to me that I needed to send wishes for the Chinese new year to my friend and his family.  I miss them a lot, especially the kids telling me they wondered of their dad has become a colonel...   

Let's see what my friend will reply.

Heroic and Ros is a very old micro-armor producer. Few years ago the line (owned by Navwar) was sold to a new group of people and they started to put out some inexpensive but well detailed stuff that is going toe to toe with GHQ. Here are some South Korean vehicles I did:



more images here:

http://forwardhq.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/heading-toward-dmz-in-1300.html


Arrigo

[commissarmoody]

Very nice. Reminds me that I also what to do a Korean war part 2 conflict.   

I do fallow your blog, and Think your PLA look amazing.

[Arlequín]

Being a consultant means that I am listened only if I provide advice they want to hear...   

That is the most succinct definition of a consultant (of any kind) that I have ever read and 100% true. 

Very nice. Reminds me that I also what to do a Korean war part 2 conflict.   

Before you get back on track, Larry Bond wrote a trashy book back in the day called 'Red Phoenix' about a second Korean War, which was not a bad read all things considered (although I never checked on the accuracy). He's also due to release a sequel called 'Red Phoenix Burning', which I gather is more of the same. Pulp fiction to some perhaps, but some of us like that.

  

[commissarmoody]

Larry Bond's books are always a good way to pass the time in the restroom. 
I will look into it.