Anyone Still with Warmaster Ancients?

[Galadrin]

I've recently decided to dip my toes into ancients wargaming and I've taken a peek at Hail Caesar, Basic Impetus, Sword & Spear, DBA, Field of Glory and a few other rulesets. Unfortunately, all of these have left me a little cold. Hail Caesar came the closest to having an interesting system, but then I discovered Warmaster Ancients (the predecessor to Hail Caesar) and it all clicked! I love the command and control system, I love how movement is so fluid and doesn't worry about the details of wheeling and turning so much, I love the three-stand units and the way skirmishers really make a difference in your battle strategy, I love the light campaign system and the special rules for differentiating between generals and veteran regiments... all in all it is a terrific game! It feels very much like a game that gives a reasonable historical feel and historical results without trying to get into the weeds of historical simulation—it's a very fun game, first and foremost.

Now I am wondering if anyone still plays with Warmaster Ancients? I've heard a lot of people moved on to Hail Caesar when WMA went out of print, which is sad... has anyone stuck with WMA though?

[frank xerox]

Yup,a couple of us up here in the north east are still playing - ancients and occasional crusade medievals. Like you say, it's the sweet spot for us between game mechanics and reasonable outcomes, and its simple, bloody good fun. We're looking at getting into the fantasy version at some point, but to be honest historicals is enough to keep us going.

[Eric the Shed]

Its a great rule system...every so often it comes out the cupboard

[Maniac]

Our club plays it on a semi regular basis and even runs a mini New Year’s tournament with it.

We have armies for Imperial Romans, Hittites, Indians, Successors, Normans, Crusaders, Saracens, Landsknechts, Teutonics, Landsknechts, and others.

Try http://www.wfhgs.com/ for issues of Warning Order which detail something of our games. 

[frank xerox]

And it used to have a really nice, enjoyable, sociable tournament scene - these not being words you normally see together. "A game for gentlemen" is how it was described to me at one tournament. And now I'm getting nostalgic...

[SteveBurt]

We played these quite a bit years ago, and while they always gave a cracking game, the more we played them (and learned rules tricks) the less the games resembled an ancients battle. Great fun, but not very realistic.

[Galadrin]

We played these quite a bit years ago, and while they always gave a cracking game, the more we played them (and learned rules tricks) the less the games resembled an ancients battle. Great fun, but not very realistic.

Interesting Steve, could you say a little more? What made the games less realistic?

[SteveBurt]

We played with 28mm figures (based for DBA/DBM) and the rules worked fine with that scale.
Most of the players efforts were devoted to in-game advantage, and the more that happened the less the battle resembled anything like a typical ancients clash which was fairly linear usually with multiple lines of troops.
The games turned into a firework display with units moving in all directions.
Great fun, but not an ancients battle any more; there was no incentive to keep troops in lines or to have reserves, and in general the units are far too manoeuvreable in the game - no penalties for turning at all.

[frank xerox]

Yup lots of gamey opportunities to be found in the way the rules are written, especially round things like withdrawals - if your opponent is sensible you just agree certain things are on or not on. Formalised in the hail Caesar approach I guess.

[Galadrin]

I'd love to hear more specific issues and details. I do not see myself playing Hail Caesar because there are several "deal breaking" issues baked into the core HC game that disqualify it. On the other hand, I am really enjoying reading and thinking about (and hopefully soon playing!) Warmaster. The things like "super fluid movement system" are a huge plus for me as it means there is less getting in the way of one trying out new formations and strategies... it all feels very, very Kriegspiel and I love it!

Of course, I do understand the criticism that ancient armies were not very agile and couldn't handle complex maneuvers, but I accept that the time and distance scale of Warmaster abstracts these things out of the picture... plus, the last thing I am looking for is a big, boring "line up and bash" type game. "Realistic" or not, the ubiquity of such games is probably what kept me out of ancients for so long. I like battle lines fine, but they should absolutely deform and break up as the battle is fought, allowing for much more opportunities to break through lines and roll up flanks, crosscut the enemy, interpolate the ranks and capture terrain, banners, leaders, high ground, encampments and supply trains. If the battle lines just remain static and homogenous then I can promise you I will not be having much fun...

The question Steve brings up about how important is a proper battle line in Warmaster is a good one. From the online games I have seen, everyone looks like they have a proper battle line and generally people seem to lose the battle when that inevitably falls apart. I would suspect the -1 command penalty for having an exposed flank would be a big part of this.

[frank xerox]

It works for me - isolated units get pounced on, losses degrade your attempts at manoeuvre and youre gambling on your grand plan falling apart when you decide to try and move the crappy unit with only two stands- it all adds to the fun! Flank marches are genuine risks that can pay off or bog down in the middle of nowhere.
There are a couple of wee niggles but to be honest Im struggling to remember details because we agreed early that they weren't on. From memory if youre gamey you can retreat from melee sideways along the line of scrimmage, teeing up a flank for next turn. Stuff like that. You just decide what you accept and what you don't.
Its well worth a punt and second hand rules turn up fairly regularly at decent prices.