Orc Fire in Tolkien

[trev]

Here's one for the Tolkien scholars.  I came across this in Unfinished Tales Part 4.1 THE DRÚEDAIN.

In the story of The Faithful Stone

"Nothing untoward happened for two nights, but on the third night Barach heard the shrill warning call of the Drûgs - or dreamed that he heard it, for it roused no one else. Leaving his bed he took his bow from the wall and went to a narrow window; and he saw two Orcs setting fuel against his house and preparing to kindle it. Then Barach was shaken with fear, for marauding Orcs carried with them brimstone or some other devilish stuff that was quickly inflamed and not quenched with water."

I'm reminded of this section at the battle of Helm's Deep.

"Even as they spoke there came a blare of trumpets. Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke. The waters of the Deeping-stream poured out hissing and foaming: they were choked no longer, a gaping hole was blasted in the wall. A host of dark shapes poured in.

'Devilry of Saruman!' cried Aragorn. 'They have crept in the culvert again, while we talked, and they have lit the fire of Orthanc beneath our feet."

I wonder if these substances are linked.  Maybe by the third age the alchemy needed is a lost art that Saramum has re-discovered. 

[Hammers]

Greek Fire

Although Saruman's substance must have been some kind of explosive compound as it could blow a breach in a solid wall.

[Grumpy Gnome]

Not just Saruman... I was reminded of this passage recently in another thread.

.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit(1937)1. Ch. 4, p. 73-74 “Now goblins are cruel, wicked, and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. … It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them …”

I have been trying to think what would cause Goblin explosions.

[Cubs]

Orc grog and Mentos?

[Hobgoblin]

I wonder if these substances are linked.  Maybe by the third age the alchemy needed is a lost art that Saramum has re-discovered.

There's definitely a theme of Saruman re-discovering wicked technologies devised earlier by Sauron or Morgoth - notably the breeding of large orcs:

It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile

(from Morgoth's Ring, my emphasis)

It's easy to miss in LotR/the Appendices/etc., but Saruman's breeding of uruks seems to be just his catching up with what Sauron did earlier (in both the Second and Third Ages) and what Morgoth did in the First Age. There's stuff in The Disaster of the Gladden Fields about nearly all the big orcs being killed off then. And then in the Appendices, we get the first appearance of the newly or re-bred big orcs when they sack Osgiliath.

So maybe the 'blasting fire' is a similar reintroduction of an old innovation, as you suggest.

[armchairgeneral]

My understanding is half orcs or man orcs were something unique to Saruman and the Uruk-hai were something different, being a larger taller breed of orc.

Going back to the original subject, Gandalf seemed quite capable of creating the most spectacular firework displays so it doesn’t seem much of a further step for another wizard such as Saruman to come up with a rudimentary form of gunpowder.

[Sunjester]

I have been trying to think what would cause Goblin explosions.

Too much Willy Wonka's Blueberry Pie chewing gum?

[Mammoth miniatures]

I have been trying to think what would cause Goblin explosions.

Natural gas? I can imagine mining goblins might cause a spark and blow themselves up, much to the amusement of their fellow gobos.

[Cubs]

There's definitely a theme of Saruman re-discovering wicked technologies devised earlier by Sauron or Morgoth - notably the breeding of large orcs:

I don't think it's any coincidence that Saruman's Orcs also have access to large amounts of strong liquor. We've all been there.

[Grumpy Gnome]

Fair point on the natural gas, I had not thought of that.

[FramFramson]

I have no doubt that Orcs produce plenty of gas quite naturally.