Hyperborea-The World of Conan

[Hobgoblin]

Sculpted with solder? That's crazy - I've never heard of that before! 

You can see it being done here:

[Gibby]

Very impressive!

[Hobgoblin]

Very impressive!

Yeah, it's amazing, I think. It makes me think of the Minifigs ranges as a whole different thing from 'conventional' miniatures.

[black hat miniatures]

Yeah, it's amazing, I think. It makes me think of the Minifigs ranges as a whole different thing from 'conventional' miniatures.

Before the use of plumber's putty "Green stuff" all figures were sculpted using solder and filing.  It is the jewellery technique - there are very few people left who can still do this, most of the old Toy Soldier producers have passed on.

When I owned All the Queen's Men, ALL the masters were metal sculptures in 54mm built up with wire and solder and filed to shape.

Creating figures using the expoxy putty is a relatively new thing in the world of toy soldiers.

[Hobgoblin]

Before the use of plumber's putty "Green stuff" all figures were sculpted using solder and filing.  It is the jewellery technique - there are very few people left who can still do this, most of the old Toy Soldier producers have passed on.

When I owned All the Queen's Men, ALL the masters were metal sculptures in 54mm built up with wire and solder and filed to shape.

Creating figures using the expoxy putty is a relatively new thing in the world of toy soldiers.

Aha - that's fascinating - thanks! But was there an intermediate stage with other epoxy putties like Miliput being used? I recall that Tom Meier introduced the Perry twins to green stuff after they'd been working at Citadel for a bit. Early Citadel figures are a lot rougher, and there's a rapid improvement from those.

[Rick]

Sure they were Citadel?
Don't forget that for the first few years, Citadel were casting only a few of their own figures - they mainly cast Ral Partha and Asgard figures, whilst slowly increasing their own figure ranges.

[Hobgoblin]

Sure they were Citadel?
Don't forget that for the first few years, Citadel were casting only a few of their own figures - they mainly cast Ral Partha and Asgard figures, whilst slowly increasing their own figure ranges.

I mean things like the Fiend Factory range. Some of those miniatures still hold up today, but others are much cruder and lumpier. Those were often replaced by more sophisticated versions while the range was still going. For example, take the two Fiend Factory cyclopes:





Now, Citadel started producing Ral Partha's stuff in the early 80s, whereas the first Fiend Factory miniatures were in 1979. I recall reading about Tom Meier coming to the UK and introducing the Perrys to green stuff, so I've always assumed that the earlier, lumpier Citadel figures were done in some other way (though with putty of some sort rather than solder, I think).

I've also wondered if the quantum leap in the quality of Tom Meier's stuff in the late 70s was down to his discovery of green stuff. Compare two different Ral Partha 'giant goblins' (i.e. Uruk-hai), done in 1978 and 1979, respectively:





To me, it looks like both the earlier Citadel and Ral Partha figures were done in some sort of 'memory free' putty like Miliput, with the classics that came thereafter done in green stuff. But I could be entirely wrong!

(I should say I really like the very early Citadel and Ral Partha stuff too - though not as much as Minifigs!)

[Rick]

Citadel started casting Ral Partha figures in the UK in 1978 - Brian Ansell set it up that way only when they had Ral Partha on board as a partner - it was a reciprocal arrangement whereby Citadel cast and sold Ral Partha in the UK and Ral Partha cast and sold Citadel in the US. Have a look at the bases - Citadel bases, from the very beginning, were distinctive; slightly domed, thinning at the edges - some of the 'Citadel' figures in the photograph's do not have Citadel bases.

[Hobgoblin]

Citadel started casting Ral Partha figures in the UK in 1978 - Brian Ansell set it up that way only when they had Ral Partha on board as a partner - it was a reciprocal arrangement whereby Citadel cast and sold Ral Partha in the UK and Ral Partha cast and sold Citadel in the US. Have a look at the bases - Citadel bases, from the very beginning, were distinctive; slightly domed, thinning at the edges - some of the 'Citadel' figures in the photograph's do not have Citadel bases.

I don't think that's quite right: Citadel wasn't incorporated until 28 December 1978, so it effectively didn't exist until 1979, and it announced the RP/Asgard distribution in April 1979. I take your point that it was late 70s rather than early 80s when Citadel started casting and distributing Ral Partha stuff, though.

Those top two are definitely Citadel: the Fiend Factory was Citadel's first range, and there's a mix of base types (possibly reflecting four different designers in Bryan Ansell, the Perry twins and Humphrey Leadbitter).

[Rick]

Really, so how did the Perry twins start working part-time for Citadel in 1978? 
They went full-time a couple of years later but there must've been a Citadel in 1978 for them to be sculpting the figures at that time and I'm certainly not going to be the one to call either (or both) of them a liar! 
Honestly it wouldn't be the first company to have a start date months after they actually started - papers get filed and bureaucracy grinds slowly. It happens.

[Hobgoblin]

Really, so how did the Perry twins start working part-time for Citadel in 1978? 
They went full-time a couple of years later but there must've been a Citadel in 1978 for them to be sculpting the figures at that time and I'm certainly not going to be the one to call either (or both) of them a liar! 
Honestly it wouldn't be the first company to have a start date months after they actually started - papers get filed and bureaucracy grinds slowly. It happens.

Sure - work can start for a nascent company that hasn't officially launched; presumably, some of the initial sculpting was done before the company started trading. But as far as I can see, the first Citadel figures weren't advertised or sold until 1979. And - again, as far as I can see - they started selling Ral Partha figures in 1979 too. Here's the launch ad from February 1979:



But ... my question is really about how the earlier, lumpier Citadel figures were sculpted - before Tom Meier introduced the Perrys to green stuff (unless that was done before the first Citadel figures were made).

[Rick]

Who were the figure sculptors before the Perry's came in? That's really where you should be looking, I think (may well have been Bryan Ansell himself). Have a look at the Citadel miniatures entry on the Lost minis wiki - there's a really interesting timeline there which may help, including their incorporation in 1978 and Tom Meier joining Citadel US in 1981.

[Hobgoblin]

Who were the figure sculptors before the Perry's came in? That's really where you should be looking, I think (may well have been Bryan Ansell himself). Have a look at the Citadel miniatures entry on the Lost minis wiki - there's a really interesting timeline there which may help, including their incorporation in 1978 and Tom Meier joining Citadel US in 1981.

That's where I sourced those photos and the dates.

I mean, the Perrys were there from the start (the official start being 28 December 1978 and the first releases in 1979), with - presumably - some sculpting done before that. Bryan Ansell certainly sculpted some of the FF range; the Perrys and the above-mentioned Humphrey Leadbitter did the rest.

Michael Perry did one of the very first FF models (no. 5 of the 11 initial releases):



That's certainly one of the 'lumpy' sort, which I'd guess was done in something other than green stuff (though I could be wrong). The impression I've had from interviews I've read is that the Perrys were already sculpting commercially before Tom Meier introduced them to green stuff, which would suggest that those early FF figures fell into a pre-green-stuff (but non-solder) category.

[Rick]

Citadel, or specifically the Perry twins, were introduced to ‘greenstuff', now called ‘Kneadatite' but then sold as ‘E-POX-E Putty' by me on my first trip to England in about 1979. They wanted to know how I made interlocking chainmail links and I showed them. They observed the technique wouldn't work so well in Milliput because it lacked elasticity so I gave them all the epoxy I had with me and sent them some more when I got home. After that for a while the management of Ral Partha used to send it to them, later they arraigned their own supplies. It all was purchased retail then shipped to England so I'm sure they tried not to waste it."
Tom Meier.

So it looks like they were using milliput and some sort of filler before Tom gave them his greenstuff, but not solder.
Having said that, I think the sculptors probably quickly gained the experience necessary to improve their work, both the sculpting and posing of the figures - so it was probably a combination of experience and material that improved the figures over that time.

[Hobgoblin]

Aha - yes! That's the quote I was half-remembering. Thanks!

And yes, it must be experience as well as material - but the improvements in such a short span of time are astonishing in any case.