Victory Decision Early War Polish Army book review

[Anatoli]

Wrote a short review of the new Victory Decision supplement for Early War which was released just a couple of days ago alongside the Early War German infantry book. Now I can play smaller sized battles in my favorite period using my Polish army miniatures outside of FoW 

Check it out on my blog:
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.se/2012/07/victory-decision-polish-army-guide-mini.html

[Sarmor]

One small comment, as I see you like to mention the 9TP tank.

First of all, the "9TP" designation is a post-war invention of someone, most probably Janusz Magnuski, who described many Polish pre-war tank projects and named them by himself, as the majority of those projects didn't have any names. The only official "TP" designations were 7TP (the only one to enter production), 4TP (light recon tank to replace the TKS) and 10TP (fast tank, kind of like BT-5).

What is called 9TP was officially named "wzmocniony 7TP" (strengthened) or "7TP wz. 39". It was a major modification of the 7TP with more armor, different engine, wider tracks and a modified body. There is no proof any were produced, not to mention any involvement in the fighting. The only sure thing is that two prototypes were created, but they were made of soft steel, so using them in the defense of Warsaw (as some claim) would be pointless.

[Agis]

1st - thanks Anatoli for the review! Always good to give potential customers an independent view on the product!
 
@Sarmor - I presume you are referring to the review and not the book?
The Polish Army guide includes the 9-TP with the following text:
"In 1938 Państwowe Zakłady Inżynierii also produced 2 prototype models of a better armoured version of the 7TP - the informally named 9-TP. The tank featured welded armour, wider tracks and a stronger engine to compensate for the additional weight.
A production run of 100 was planned of which only 11 were built. All 13 9-TP tanks were used in the defense of Warsaw in September 1939." (1,2,3)
See:
1. A. Jońca, J. Szubański, R. Tarczyński: Wrzesień 1939. Pojazdy Wojska Polskiego. Barwa i broń., Warszawa: Wydawnictwa Komunikacji i Łączności, 1990, ss. 52-53. ISBN 83-206-0847-3.
2. A. Wszendyrówny, M. Wodejko: Czołg 7TP w dokumentach Centralnego Archiwum wojskowego, w: "Do Broni", nr 1/2009, s. 96. ISSN 1732-9450.
3. A. Jońca, J. Szubański, R. Tarczyński: op. cit., s. 32.

[Sarmor]

As I've said, I'm referring to the fact that Anatoli mentions the 9TP tank and its combat service. I can't refer to the book, as I haven't seen it. Though one of the previews shows it has the rules for 9TP, which left me puzzled. Not that I have something against rules for prototypes, I just want to point out that the info on their combat use is undocumented.

I do have the book by Jońca, Szubański and Tarczyński, it was the book of my childhood. Not that I read it then, but it had some really cool illustrations. But I haven't looked into it for a long, long time.
Page 32 gives no info on the use of the 7TP wz.39/9TP tank, it only mentions that the 2nd Company used 11 tanks from "current production", not specifying their version.
Again pages 52-58 mention 11 tanks delivered in September 1939 "from current production". Additionally, the authors state it's "safe to assume" that these 11 were of the improved version. Now for me "assuming" and "knowing" are two different things.

I'll look up the article in Do Broni!, maybe it has some better info.

[Agis]

If in doubt I can always delete the last two sentences and mark it as a prototype. 

[joroas]

Gosh, a scholarship discussion!  This site never ceases to amaze me with the quality of its members!  

.... and a Pole and a German doing so in English is even more impressive! 

[Agis]

Yup - we are good!

[Anatoli]

13 "9TP" were produced and delivered according to the sources I have  read,  and according to them they took part as a HQ unit in Warsaw backed up by two platoons of 7TPjw tanks. These tanks had better engine and better armour protection (especially to the rear engine compartment).

The 9TP were named so unofficially, and were in reality improved 7TP tanks but I prefer to say 9TP to keep the two apart.

Sarmor, how old is the book? A lot of historical knowledge about WW2 in particular was either suppressed or twisted under the communist years.


edit: There may be added confusion since there was a model called 10TP which only ever reached prototype stage. This was a completely new design, and none were produced before the outbreak of the war.

[Sarmor]

If in doubt I can always delete the last two sentences and mark it as a prototype.  

IMHO it should be marked as a prototype, but you could mention that some say it saw combat in Warsaw - some might want to try that scenario.

13 "9TP" were produced and delivered according to the sources I have  read,  and according to them they took part as a HQ unit in Warsaw backed up by two platoons of 7TPjw tanks. These tanks had better engine and better armour protection (especially to the rear engine compartment).

I've read about 11 or 11+2 prototypes (on Wikipedia and some Polish sites/forums).
Could you name your sources? I'm really interested in establishing which version is true.

Sarmor, how old is the book? A lot of historical knowledge about WW2 in particular was either suppressed or twisted under the communist years.

"Wrzesień 1939. Pojazdy Wojska Polskiego" is from 1990. Bear in mind that it's a book that's used as a source to prove 9TP's production and combat service, yet it presents it only as an assumption.
The article in "Do Broni" from 2006, but I still don't know what's in it (I'll probably end up buying it ).

As for the communist suppressing the knowledge, I'm not sure it's that plausible in case of pre-war technology. Of course, Second Republic's authorities and officer's were presented as evil and/or incompetent capitalists, but the communists were pretty cool with technological developments (they were viewed as Polish developments, rather than capitalist ones).
On the other hand (and this is a side comment, I'm not saying it's the case here), early 1990's saw a publishing boom in Poland, with many books containing unsourced information of doubtful value - I've got a book from 1991 that states that Sten was a Polish creation (and the author is talking about the original SMG, not only Home Army copies or modifications).

[Anatoli]

Yeah there still remains a bit of mixed information on a bit of everything.

All sources that mention the production keep it at 11 models + 2 prototypes. The prototype can be seen on a picture depicting Polish tanks on a military parade (rear shot shows armoured engine compartment instead of those big ventilation slits).

The sources I have read are:
http://www.2wojna.pl/encyklopedia-pl-wb-001.html

http://www.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~bolas/main/uzbrojenie/czolgi/7tp.htm

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Kompania_Czo%C5%82g%C3%B3w_Lekkich_Dow%C3%B3dztwa_Obrony_Warszawy#cite_note-0

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/9TP

http://panzerschreck.strefa.pl/7tp.html

Those sites also state further sources and interesting information on these uparmoured and equipped with a better engine 7TP tanks which were as stated "latest production" and part of the next 7TP production run which was stopped by the war.

[Sarmor]

I've seen this photo earlier, actually it would be easier to identify the tank if the photo showed its side. Those big ventilation slits were a feature of early production 7TPs, later versions (not only the 9TP) had them covered.
Not that I want to sound overly doubting (though I probably do).

I looked into the "Czołg lekki 7TP" vol. 1 by Janusz Magnuski and the more recent "7TP" vol. 2 by Janusz Magnuski and Rajmund Szubański.
The first volume mentions the two prototypes, but concludes that this version never entered production.
On the other hand the second volume mentions 11 tanks delivered shortly before the war from an order from April 1939, but doesn't specify their version. Later, the book describes the actions of tanks in the defence of Warsaw, but refers to them solely as 7TPs, though in the end mentions, that the 2 9TP prototypes were captured by the Germans.

The much earlier Typy Broni i Uzbrojenia* 21 "Polski Czołg Lekki 7TP" by Leszek Komuda in cooperation with J. Magnuski states that the 9TPs were ordered in June 1939 and meant to be delivered in 1940, which makes their appearance in September 1939 rather unlikely. But the book's from 1973, so it's accuracy is debatable.
*A very popular series of booklets describing various weapons, from pistols to ships, published in the communist era.

I guess we can agree that we don't really know for sure.  
Still, I'll try to look up this recent article in "Do Broni" and other non-internet sources I'll come by.