Being the Air War guy that I am...

[Conquistador]

Here's a "cleaned up" quote (Yes, I know it's wikipedia,) that I wanted to run by you for comment.

"... Contrary to conventional wisdom, with sufficient altitude the P-40 could actually turn with the A6M and other Japanese fighters, using a combination of a nose-down vertical turn with a bank turn, a technique known as a low yo-yo. Robert DeHaven describes how this tactic was used in the 49th Fighter group:

You could fight a Jap on even terms, but you had to make him fight your way. He could outturn you at slow speed. You could outturn him at high speed. When you got into a turning fight with him, you dropped your nose down so you kept your airspeed up, you could outturn him. At low speed he could outroll you because of those big ailerons ... on the Zero. If your speed was up over 275, you could outroll a Zero. His big ailerons didn't have the strength to make high speed rolls... You could push things, too. Because ... if you decided to go home, you could go home. He couldn't because you could outrun him. ... That left you in control of the fight."

Being a big proponent of 2D aircraft games * I am now thinking of revisiting my favorite 2D rules to see if this can be reflected in those rules.

Gracias,

Glenn

* and preferring Hurricanes, P-38s, P-40s, and P-39s in these games

[Vonkluge]

You could fight a Jap on even terms, but you had to make him fight your way. He could outturn you at slow speed. You could outturn him at high speed. When you got into a turning fight with him, you dropped your nose down so you kept your airspeed up, you could outturn him. At low speed he could outroll you because of those big ailerons ... on the Zero. If your speed was up over 275, you could outroll a Zero. His big ailerons didn't have the strength to make high speed rolls... You could push things, too. Because ... if you decided to go home, you could go home. He couldn't because you could outrun him. ... That left you in control of the fight."

Interesting description... of course he contradicts himself (correctly) in the first line, saying that you could fight a Zero on even terms but then says that really you had to have him fight on your terms. That is Dog fighting in a nutshell, from WWI to WWII planes and pilots used both their planes strengths and their personal skill to defeat their enemies, and it worked if the enemy was unskilled, or foolish enough to try to fight on his enemies terms. Plane to plane combat was and is a search for the technology or technique, or training, to tip the balance into one sides favor. That balance shifted both ways at different times during the wars and the pilots who failed to recognize that and adapt or avoid unfavorable combat got shot down. Most pilots who fought the Japanese during the early part of the War in the Pacific and SURVIVED had learned to avoid toe to toe combat with them and use the strengths (speed and power) of their planes to exploit the weaknesses in their opponents plane. Those enemy pilots who then kept the fight going and attempted to fight when the weakness of his own plane was being used against him were then shot down.

Pilots, especially their group leaders had to learn when to stay and fight and when to bug out of a fight. Very tough to do and not appear to be cowardly.

I have played many 2-Dimensional and 3 Dimensional Air to Air combat games "Mustang and Messerschmidt's" being the greatest for realism of the bunch. I think the modeling of the flying abilities of these planes is only really possible in a 3D games and where experienced players will then learn and use them. In a 2D game this plane difference is much harder to replicate and make work with a historical realism. The "technique" that he describes is something that had to be learned in theory and practice in combat and thus only available to veteran or experienced pilots. So in a 2D game I would think a modifier to some of the pilots abilities reflecting their ability to get that edge on their enemy would be a better way to do it than giving the ability to every plane.

Bill

[workerBee]

<snip>

The "technique" that he describes is something that had to be learned in theory and practice in combat and thus only available to veteran or experienced pilots. So in a 2D game I would think a modifier to some of the pilots abilities reflecting their ability to get that edge on their enemy would be a better way to do it than giving the ability to every plane.

Bill

Ooh, as a confirmed 2D player I think that is a brilliant gaming insight.  I will experiment with how to do that.

Gracias,

Glenn

[Vonkluge]

A lot of it is experience, if you are playing a game that is ongoing (same pilots flying mission after mission, game after game) those that survive combat gain experience and some type of "plus" modifier to their rolls. Those who shoot an enemy plane down also gain experience. If you have 5 planes on one sides you could have 1-2 veterans in the group. I find that games that are linked together are much more satisfying in that people tend to break off combat and retreat from a bad situation instead of fight to the last man or bullet because there is in a game no downside. In linked games this is easy to address as you #1 want to get your pilots experienced with out to many dieing, 2# as some become Veterans they can help balance the fight until more of your men gain experience, you still don't want to lose these Vets! #3 as you now come to the battle with more experience pilots you can take the battle to the enemy and risk more since the odds are now in your favor.

The Japanese as well as the Germans started the War with machines that sometime were better than their opponents, sometimes not, BUT they did have a large group of veterans that KNEW how to use their planes strengths and weaknesses to defeat their enemy. However they for many reasons had to fight battles where they were at a disadvantage and this led to the loss of these trained, experienced veterans at a rate that could no longer be matched by the training of the inexperienced pilots. Sometimes technology temporarily re-addressed this but in the long run the number of veteran pilots was one of the big deciding factors in air combat in both wars.

Bill