Ravenna- Gaston de Foix Vignette Composition 29.12.15

[olicana]

BTW, how do you read the numbers?

I have the Spanish + Allies at 1,725 lances
I have the French at about 1,690 lances, possibly plus another 300 heavy horse (all told, not lances?) with d'Alegre.

If these figures are right, that means somewhere between 7,000 and 10,000 heavy horse, depending on a lance being two or three heavy cavalry (Archer types, regardless of how armed, in the second / third rank?). I have to say that I've always been a bit at sea when it comes to how I field a lance. Some time ago I decided (because a decision was required) that a lance should be (on average) 2.5 men; using that ratio I get about 8,800 heavy horse.

I'm not at all sure that this is right. Something deep inside me tells me that a lance should be just two 'fighting' heavy cavalry, in layman's terms the 'knight and his squire', with the third and possibly fourth, members of the lance standing back holding spare horses and the like, or possibly detailed off to fight as crossbow armed infantry or as 'Argoulets', as I've always been a bit sceptical about the quality of horse flesh this far down the food chain, especially when put up against a true 'charger' I think inferior horses would just get bowled over. I would never field the 'groom' of the lance, I reckon the lance's Planchet would be guarding everyone's spare kit back in the camp. Also, I'm a bit sceptical about the size of a lance in the field anyway, what with corruption (dead pays, etc.) being rife. I usually try to field all heavy cavalry in full harness as I think most of the hand to hand fighting was probably done by the 'Gendarme' in any event.

What are your thoughts?

[Atheling]

James,

To cut a long story short I'll be going with the I Gendarme to two 'archers' ratio. The archers were too valuable not to be combat worthy.

Darrell.

[Stuart]

James / Darrell

Here's my analysis of the French Lance;

http://www.stuartsworkbench.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/ordonnance-archers-wip-part-1.html?m=1

My conclusion was 1 gendarme, 1 man at arms and 1 archer with the outside possibility of a fourth though you could theorise for hours over the combat value of the valet/ page.

In practice the gendarme is heavy cavalry, the man at arms is effectively a Demilancer and the archer, at this time is a mounted archer dragoon type not really intended for mounted combat though they were apparently thrown into the fray as thus at Marignano which some argue was the beginning of the notion of their becoming a cavalryman.

Argoulets and Mounted crossbowmen I am convinced are just an ordinance archer not armed with a bow but intended to fight as dragoons.

To conclude, 1512-1515 was the start of a period of change in the French lance.

As for the Spanish, I'm afraid I haven't looked at them in the same detail.

Being a maniacal masochist I'm going for as close a representation as possible requiring hours of conversion and resultant head scratching of how to game with the archers but that's just me.

Good look Darrell !

P.S thanks for the inspiration James, your efforts have very much inspired me over the years.

All the best

Stuart

[Atheling]

Thanks Stuart as usual mate.

At present I think I'm still going to stick to the 1/2 ratio for the sake of simplicity though this may change over time.

We will see- far too busy with the Hastings stuff at present!

Cheers,
Darrell.

[olicana]

<q>and resultant head scratching of how to game with the archers </q>

It is easier to chuck 'em in with the Gendarmes as a combined unit and not worry about them fighting separately.

I bought a few bags of OG archer cavalry to game them separated off as 'demi-lancer' type units (chevauxleger?), which they started doing from around 1525ish (?) but, frankly, as I mainly use them to pad out Gendarme units I would have been better spending cash and painting time doing more of them instead. C'est la vie.

[Atheling]

<q>and resultant head scratching of how to game with the archers </q>

It is easier to chuck 'em in with the Gendarmes as a combined unit and not worry about them fighting separately.

I bought a few bags of OG archer cavalry to game them separated off as 'demi-lancer' type units (chevauxleger?), which they started doing from around 1525ish (?) but, frankly, as I mainly use them to pad out Gendarme units I would have been better spending cash and painting time doing more of them instead. C'est la vie.

Yep, basically I'm just adding mine to the back ranks and will be going with what feels and looks right at the end of the day.

We're getting a bit OT now

We could start another topic maybe?

cheers,
Darrell.