Salute 2017 More Fantasy/Sci-fi than Historical?!

[OSHIROmodels]

we came away thinking that we should do a table just to show all the rest up but I am not sure we can be bothered to transport it all the way down to London twice in a year

Do it!!!

[Silent Invader]

Perhaps many people that make really nice boards do so for themselves and their friends and, thus with nothing to sell*, don't feel the need to incur the attention, hassle and expense of showing them (and in less than perfect lighting too!)?

If Salute paid expenses and a show fee, I'm sure there'd be quite a few presentation games that would become available! 

Also, WRT packaged games, if most wargamers actually play on relatively simple terrain there is the argument that a board requiring hundreds of man hours to assemble might discourage buy-in by punters. If the potential punters know that they can't or don't want to mirror a game-on-steroids that is being advertised to them, then they and their wallets might walk by.


*with no disrespect to sellers, especially those that have terrain to sell!

[Hammers]

Do it!!!

DO IT!!!

[YPU]

If Salute paid expenses and a show fee, I'm sure there'd be quite a few presentation games that would become available! 

A bit like performers at other shows would receive. This sound like an interesting concept but very hard to arrange. Who to get and why, trying to avoid favoritism for people clubs or periods etc.

Oh and mac: DO IT!

[Silent Invader]

A bit like performers at other shows would receive. This sound like an interesting concept but very hard to arrange. Who to get and why, trying to avoid favoritism for people clubs or periods etc.

I'm under no illusion that it'd happen 

[OSHIROmodels]

Also, WRT packaged games, if most wargamers actually play on relatively simple terrain there is the argument that a board requiring hundreds of man hours to assemble might discourage buy-in by punters. If the potential punters know that they can't or don't want to mirror a game-on-steroids that is being advertised to them, then they and their wallets might walk by.

I understand what you mean Steve but why advertise their games with painted figures then... It serves as an inspiration for those that want to improve the look of their boards.

I understand that not everyone is bothered by the look but it's the UK's premier show so people should make an effort and not just use it for free entry to the show.

cheers

James

[Hu Rhu]

I understand that not everyone is bothered by the look but it's the UK's premier show so people should make an effort and not just use it for free entry to the show.

Totally agree.  I was appalled by the frankly shoddy games tables. Yours and a couple of others were brilliant but the rest......

[Silent Invader]

I understand what you mean Steve but why advertise their games with painted figures then... It serves as an inspiration for those that want to improve the look of their boards.

I understand that not everyone is bothered by the look but it's the UK's premier show so people should make an effort and not just use it for free entry to the show.

cheers

James

There are obviously sellers that go to the trouble (make the investment) and so I'm fearful of painting with a broad brush. I'd say though, that that for those sellers who don't make their own terrain, the cost of a realistic board must seem like a big chunk of real money to invest and earn a return on, especially if it's only for the one convention. Minis they'll have painted for the website images  that will surely account for the bulk of their sales. It's already been observed that this Salute was fantasy/sci-fi dominated, genres that tend to require fewer relatively more expensive figures and a smaller board. The board is promotion/advertising/marketing and the economics of the fantasy/sci-fi genres do seem more likely to offer a better return on that spend. Thus, and going from the photos, most (yours definitely excluded!) of the good-looking boards were for games with a smaller table footprint.  That leaves the clubs, groups of friends etc, to put on the spectaculars. If what I've written so far is correct then the question becomes: "what's the motivation for a non-seller to put on a spectacular?". Maybe (and I've never been a club member so I really couldn't know) the esteem from competing or free entry to Salute was enough of a motivation/reward. If it was, perhaps it isn't now?

[mcfonz]

Haha! Jim, it seems that I was so dazed and confused by the end of the show that I walked up to your stall, babbled and didn't realise I was at your stand!!!

Right, Historical Vs Sci fi AND Fantasy.

I think there are several issues going on here, some of which have been touched on.

Firstly game scales. By this I mean large scale mass battle games vs skirmish etc. My reflection of Salute was that the ratios seemed similar. However, what I did notice was that the historical games were predominantly display games, as in games that a club had put on but that did not engage with show goers directly. More as a spectacle. Now, this on it's own is not an issue. But when you have a giant table, full of miniatures, it looks fantastic, but it can also look rather intimidating and unachievable for an individual. They also tend to be rule sets that are designed for the long play, hours long games. Again, this means that unless a spectator visits several times throughout the day, the amount of "action" on the table will be minimal.

These styles of games definitely have their place and the hobby would be poorer without them, but I think clubs need to consider how they can draw in people's attention and interact with them and engage with them. Some are good at this - there is no doubt of that. However, I was part of the randomplatypus team putting on games for Hasslefree. There were two historical tables near us. One was a participation game, full of energy, engagement and noises that suggested people were having fun, I believe that it may have been a Wings of War game. The other couldn't have been more opposite. Very little appeared to happen all day, they seemed to be enjoying themselves as a club, but there was little energy exuding from the table and it wasn't stunning enough in it's own right to draw people over to it.

I think there has been quite a change in direction for wargaming, there are parts of it that have been left behind. It now falls under the umbrella of "tabletop gaming" - which for me is quite indicative of where we find the hobby as a whole. People seem to be having less and less time and money to spend on their hobby. They still love it, but what they want back has changed as a result. In some ways this is no real surprise considering the economic climate etc.

Even looking at GW, it is clear to see that they too have identified that the format of their games was dropping in popularity. In short, I feel that mass battle games are currently on the decline in popularity, especially in 28mm. They are expensive, demand space and time that people are finding harder to come by.

I would say that the table top umbrella has come with the resurgence in popularity of board games, many straddle the line effectively such as Zombicide etc. And again, I think we can draw from this. Most board games can be played in an evening, either more than once or perhaps 2-3hrs of play. Enough to fit into a club night. They are relatively inexpensive when compared to investing into an army and rules set. And you can have several to suit varied tastes.

What games are we seeing that are popular and holding their ground? Saga, Guildball, Malifaux, Warmahordes, Wings of War, X-Wing - essentially games that can be played with small, easy to put together forces that are relatively inexpensive and playable within an evening at least once. Other systems such as Pulp Alley, 7TV etc also enjoy prolonged success for similar reasons. GW is now accommodating three different playing styles to their games to include the different scales and to open the door for skirmish level games again. Even more than that, they are releasing side games which are designed to be smaller scale skirmish games.

So, I would say at the moment, the demand appears to be very much on smaller games that most people can afford to buy into and that they can afford to assemble a force for and have the time to play games within and evening and have the space at home to do so. That for me was reflected in many tables at Salute.

We ran two 4x4 tables, one sci fi and one fantasy, both using home brew rules, designed purely for fun and for the rules to fit onto two sides of A4 - which is just the one sheet. Simple, fast and fun.

[Elk101]

Now I've never ventured to Salute,  mainly because it would be an expensive day out, but I always look forward to seeing the photos. Before any of this topic started I remember being a little disappointed at a lot of what I saw and that seems to have been quite widespread amongst LAF attendees. There were some obvious exceptions with some lovely looking games but normally I'm "wowed" by a lot more.

I enjoy historical and sci-fi games and the Pulp genre blends in between. I enjoy seeing and playing all of them but I'd be very disappointed if one was entirely eclipsed by the other.  

Having seen several years' worth of Gamer Mac and Andym's tables in the flesh I can say with considerable confidence that they are examples of the sort of thing that should be representing the hobby at the very highest level.

[mcfonz]

I think it's disappointing that people expect all of the tables to be amazing if not stunning pieces of artwork. If that's what people feel wargames shows should be then I would stay at home if I were you . . . . .

For me, Salute and other wargames shows are not about "the best table" or all of the tables having to meet a certain standard. It's a celebration of the hobby, from it's roots in games being played with very limited pieces on the living room floor right up to things like diorama's and incredibly well painted miniatures and everything in-between.

There should be amazing pieces to inspire and set targets for people to aspire to. But there should also be games where people understand that the focus is on the game, not the board and the social interaction and enjoyment of sharing in our hobby with others.

You can't possibly get that from photos alone.

I have a load of photo's I have posted elsewhere. I'll happily add them up on here but to be honest, the level of moaning is starting to make me question if I should be bothered.

[Elk101]

That's a fair point about the social interaction and enjoyment, and you're right,  that can't be conveyed in a photo. I didn't intend to come across as "moaning"  and I'd bet many of the others expressing views didn't either. It's just a view taken, perhaps as a result of some of the spectacular tables from previous shows,  that there didn't appear to be as many "wow factor"  games from a visual perspective. No one said wargames shows had to be solely about stunning pieces of artwork but it is a part of it that does leave you with a good vibe when you see it, maybe inspiring you to start a new period or attempt something yourself.

[nic-e]

I was blown away by the amazing stuff on display, but it was my first ever salute.
I will say that it has got me more interested in historicals than i previously was,  which makes me think this will probably go in waves. One year it's all sci fi and fantasy , then people get into that, then they get bored, then they see a historical board and say "hey, I want in on that" and two years down the line the historical showing is up.Gamers are nothing if not fickle.

I had my experience soured right at the end as i was taking my table down, when i found the sign that my bosses had put on it, on which they credited themselves with having come up with and developed the idea for the board despite it being entirely my idea

[OSHIROmodels]

If what I've written so far is correct then the question becomes: "what's the motivation for a non-seller to put on a spectacular?".

Kudos, pride, pleasure, a sense of achievement?

Yes, putting on a demo/participation game that looks good can be expensive but there are ways round it. The blank snooker baize mats could have a little texture drybrushed on, varying the colours, have all the bases match or be in a similar style, the presentation of the actual game i.e. Have a cloth that covers the supplied table, some presentable handouts etc.

I think it's disappointing that people expect all of the tables to be amazing if not stunning pieces of artwork. If that's what people feel wargames shows should be then I would stay at home if I were you . . . . .

I certainly don't expect all the tables to be works of art but the vast majority (from what I saw on the day and in various photo reports) were of an average or sub-standard for the biggest show in the UK. With Salute being such a big show and more none-wargamers than normal will come through the doors it needs to be the best representation of the hobby.

I get that the club game should be represented and agree that it should but a little bit more effort wouldn't hurt 

Don't worry about babbling, I very nearly fell asleep on my chair twice towards the end of the day and only a nudge from my wife stopped me 

cheers

James

[mcfonz]

To be honest I don't think Salute would have that high a number of non-gamers. It might have a high number of gamers in transition from GW based games but it's not the sort of show you could wander past and be drawn into. Especially not without being at excel for another show.

Arguably local shows are more like that. My local show in Norwich is Diceni and situated in the forum atrium. It is therefore free. People have to walk through the show to get to the central Library or coffee shop or pozza express. Now that has entire families just stumble across it and get drawn in.