Historical Mass Battles in 28mm - a question

[Guessologist]

All,

Having made the transition from WFB into more skirmish scale historical games, I'm looking at getting into 28mm historical mass battles and have been a little overwhelmed by the number of different rule sets and opinions on these: Sword and Spear, Swordpoint, Hail Caesar, KoW etc etc.

My question is: Is there a resource out there that is unbiased in their review of these different rule sets?
Apologies if there is a "pinned" topic/answer for this that I have failed to see.

Cheers,
Guessologist

[SteveBurt]

What period(s) are you interested in?
What sort of scale of battle are you interested in? A 'big skirmish' or a true large battle game where your figures represent up to 50,000 men a side?
Roughly how many figures per side are you going to field? 50? 100? 200? 300? more?
Are you interested in reflecting the difficulties of ancient command and control?
How much detail are you comfortable with?
How much time do you have available to play your games?

The answers to those questions will narrow down the rules you might be interested in.

[fusilierdan]

Do a search through the Ancient boards for reviews of the games.
What historical figures do you have already? Build on that.
Are there clubs or wargame shows in your area? You may be able to find a game there.

I find that searching the net using rules name and review gets good results.

Among wargamers there are no unbiased reviews 

Sometimes you just have to buy the game and take your chances.
Have fun

[Mr Brown]

Disclaimer - I'm not sure if this post will prove useful but I'll have a bash anyway.

If you've transitioned into more historical skirmish orientated games from WFB, was it because you didn't like or stopped liking WFB? Given the existence of WAB (Warhammer ancient battles) I'd say this would be a good jumping off point to consider. You'll recognise a lot of the rules and it's still a pretty popular game despite it not being commercially available anymore. (Second hand copies of the rules tend to be relatively easy to pick up).

As previously discussed, if you have an idea of the period or style of massed battle game you are after, this will help narrow down the options. You should also consider what you want from a game. It's very difficult to have an unbiased or objective view at rulesets because a lot of them attempt to do different things. KoW is at its core a good simple rule system which allows for historic flavour rather than accuracy for example. Do you want to play a game through in a club night 2-3 hours or do you want something with a lot of depth that might take 3-4+hours?

It's kind of like asking what you should have for dinner. You enjoy snacking but are looking for something bigger. Without knowing more about your tastes, it'll be hard to offer anything other than good generic advise

Cheers

[Polkovnik]

My question is: Is there a resource out there that is unbiased in their review of these different rule sets?

Well most reviews will be unbiased in that there is not normally anything in it for the reviewer. Players who write reviews will normally say what they think about a game honestly, telling you about the positives and negatives, in their opinion. 
Gamers will often spend more time reviewing and playing a game that they like, and so most reviews will be positive, but you can also find plenty of negative reviews and threads on forums as well.

The best thing to do is to try to narrow down your search by thinking about what you want from a game (as mentioned above), find the games that meet these criteria, then search for reviews on them.
If there are any local gamers that play these games, try to get a game arranged with them so you can find out first hand what it is like.

[Guessologist]

Thanks for the replies and food for thought.

I suppose I was thinking along the same scales as WAB... model count wise, ancient through medieval period, played in a couple of hours with a good blend of strategy and abstract, and not too deep.... yeah, doesn't really narrow it down.

Looks like I have a bit more thinking and research to do.

Cheers
Guessologist

[N.C.S.E]

I'm going to get in trouble having never played these particular rules but it's sounding more and more like Hail Caesar might be worthwhile looking into

[SteveBurt]

Do you like individually based figures and figure removal?
If so, the WAB and its successors (Clash of Empires and War and Conquest) are probably where to look.
On the other hand, if your figures are multi-based, then there are a lot of rules to choose from.
To name a few, in no particular order:
Hail Caesar, Warmaster Ancients, DBMM, Field of Glory, DBA, Sword & Spear, To the Strongest.

Which ones you like depends on whether you like command friction, what style of game you prefer and so on.

[Norm]

I think you will find quite a bit of video based  info on Hail Caesar, probably enough for you to know whether you will like them. Unless you compress them a bit, they favour a large playing space and large forces. Say 3 -4 divisions with 3 -4 units per division.

Sword and Spear has interesting activation and combat systems and there is a growing amount of video footage explaining these. You can have 8 - 12 units per side, unit basing is 80mm for 15mm and 120mm for 28mm. There are some army lists in the book, but a whole load are free on line.

Impetus Basic V2 has just been released. It is a cut down version of the  full game, it has been around for 10 years and so is a solid platform that is popular. Basing is a single 120mm base for 28mm. The rules cost around £25 but have over 300 army lists, so everything is in one book.

I have swordpoint, but have not explored them enough to comment. You get just a few army lists and will then have to buy support books for other lists.

With Sword and Spear and Impetus, the single base per unit can be done as small dioramas and there is an opportunity to not need as many figures per army while still achieving attractive bases.

[warrenpeace]

...ancient through medieval period, played in a couple of hours with a good blend of strategy and abstract, and not too deep....

Armati II fits what you want. Two hour game. Not too many figures. Some tactical decisions, but not overly detailed. Armati made me feel like I was really playing ancients & medieval. It's a brawl, not a chess game.

[vodkafan]

Vis Bellica! just thought I would throw that one out there....they were the rules I started wargaming with...anybody else remember them?

[mellis1644]

To be honest is depends what any opponent plays/wants to play and the style of game you want.

If you want the 'ranks and flanks' style of WFB/WAB with few command and control issues then maybe look at Kings of War historical. I'd avoid impetus (all versions) never did it for me at all and one of the few rules systems which really I can say that about. Various reasons and as said different horses for different courses.

Both Hail Caesar, and Sword & Spear are fun and work but are very different games. Too the strongest is another fun game and different again in play and feel. Art D'La Guerre is forth different play style as it carries on the DBM/FOG game type but in a much better set of rules.

For medium sized games (in fig terms in 28mm) both Lion Rampant and DBA give great games and may be options.

I have not tried swordpoint nor war and conquest (or others I likely have missed).

Your best bet is to read a bit then buy and try some.