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Author Topic: Livery/non livery colors worn by troops during the Hundred Years War  (Read 5997 times)

Offline dbsubashi

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 306
Re: Livery/non livery colors worn by troops during the Hundred Years War
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2017, 12:41:31 AM »
Try Medieval Military Costume: Europa Militaria Special No. 8 by Gerry Embleton or The Medieval Fighting Man - Europa Militaria Special No. 18: Costume and Equipment 800 - 1500by Jens Hill. Embleton's The Medieval Soldier's World: 15th Century Campaign Life Recreated in Color Photographs is quite good too.

Offline Captain Gideon

  • Librarian
  • Posts: 146
Re: Livery/non livery colors worn by troops during the Hundred Years War
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2017, 02:25:30 AM »
It's funny you say that because earlier today I bought The Medieval Fighting Man-Europa Militaria Special No.18.

I'll keep an eye out for the other ones.


Offline Atheling

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11905
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: Livery/non livery colors worn by troops during the Hundred Years War
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2019, 07:59:09 AM »
I've got a great copy of Hobilar (off the top of my head I think it's number 52?) which has a fantastic list of liveries for the HYW (and the WoR)

If you PM me with your email address I can scan it for you(?)


Offline vexillia

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 527
    • Vexillia
Re: Livery/non livery colors worn by troops during the Hundred Years War
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2019, 08:34:23 AM »
This list of War of the Roses livery colours may help, it includes all those from Barry's list:

https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2018/09/war-of-roses-livery-colours-database.html

Offline levied troop

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1451
Re: Livery/non livery colors worn by troops during the Hundred Years War
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2019, 09:04:45 AM »
This is always an interesting question and I wouldn’t disagree with anything said above.
My sixpence-worth is that mass-production, consistent standards, colour-fast dyes and actual enforcement of regulations was often variable to non-existent.  And then there’s the human desire to ‘do yer own thing’  :)
I tend to paint my medieval units in a specific livery colour, but with variations in shade and usually 10-20% in an unbleached linen/brownish wool. 
Also, Genoa used the cross of St George as it’s city symbol so the mercenary crossbowmen in French service can also wear a Red Cross on white background - just to cause confusion on the battlefield.
The League of Gentlemen Anti Alchemists
(We Turn Gold into Lead)

Offline Condottiere

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  • Mad Scientist
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  • Posts: 781
Re: Livery/non livery colors worn by troops during the Hundred Years War
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2019, 02:02:06 PM »
St. George's Cross and the Siege of Fort Pitt: Battle of Three Empires

Flags in Old Regime France
Quote
Prior to 1792 the notion of a French flag is itself fuzzy. The use of national emblems, however, can be traced to the crusades, and specifically to the start of the Third Crusade. The kings of France and England were in a peace conference in a field between Gisors and Trie, in January 1188, when the archbishop of Tyre arrived with the news of the conquest of Jerusalem by Saladdin, and an urgent plea for a new crusade. The event is told by the contemporary chronicler Roger de Hoveden ( Chronica (vol. 2), p. 335; ed. William Stubbs; London, 1869).

Cui colloquio interfuit archiepiscopus Tyri, qui repletus spiritus sapientiae et intellectus, miro modo praedicavit verbum Domini coram regibus et principibus, et convertit corda eorum ad crucem capiendam. Et qui prius hostes erant, illo praedicante et Deo cooperante, facti sunt amici in illa die, et de manu ejus crucem receperunt; et in eadem hora apparuit supra eos signum crucis in coelo. Quo viso miraculo, plures catervatim ruebant ad susceptionem crucis. Praedicti vero reges in susceptione crucis, ad cognoscendam gentem suam, signum evidens sibi et suis providerunt. Rex namque Franciae et gens sua susceperunt cruces rubeas; et rex Angliae cum gente sua suscepit cruces albas; et Philippus comes Flandriae cum gente sua suscepit cruces virides; et sic unusquisque, ad providendum sibi et itineri suo necessaria, reversus est in regionem suam.    

At this conference came the archbishop of Tyre, who, filled with wisdom and intellect, preached wonderfully the word of God before kings and princes, and moved their hearts to taking the cross. And those who were enemies before, by his predication and God's help, became friends that day, and received the cross from his hand; and in that moment the sign of the cross appeared above them in the sky. On seeing that miracle, many rushed in droves to take the cross. And said kings, when taking the cross, chose a visible sign for themselves and their people to identify their nation. The king of France and his people took red crosses; the king of England with his people took white crosses; and Philip count of Flanders with his people took green crosses; and thus everyone returned home to provide for the needs of his journey.


It is often said that the system was extended to other regions or nations: Brittany's cross was black, Lorraine green, Italy and Sweden yellow, Burgundy a red Saint Andrew's, Gascony a white Saint Andrew's. France (it is alleged) had a red cross and England a white cross. It appears that the English switched to the red cross of Saint George sometime in the late 14th c. (I hope someone else has better info, this is from a French book...). And then, in 1420, the king of France Charles VI disowned his son the Dauphin Charles and chose Henry V of England as his successor, and the English "took over" the the French red cross as their own. I'm not sure how much sense this all makes, but one thing seems clear from the iconography: in 1356 and 1380, the English have white crosses and the French red; in 1415 and after, the colors are inverted.

Anyway, the Dauphin Charles had to find an emblem of his own. In 1422, when Charles VI died, he became Charles VII, adopted a white cross as emblem and a white flag as banner. Joan of Arc's famous banner was white with religious figures embroidered on it. Thereafter the three parties to the civil wars of 1420-36 are distinguished by the cross: white for the French, red for the English and red saltire for the Burgundians.

Offline levied troop

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1451
Re: Livery/non livery colors worn by troops during the Hundred Years War
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2019, 02:51:35 PM »
The white cross on a red background is St Edwards banner and was certainly used as an English flag alongside St George’s better known one.  I’m not sure when St George became the predominant banner but I think it’s a fair bit earlier than 1415.

Offline Atheling

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11905
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: Livery/non livery colors worn by troops during the Hundred Years War
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2019, 10:33:25 AM »
I did manage to get a copy of Armies of the Middle Ages volume 1 on eBay a month or two and it does come in handy but there must be some books out there with color plates on this period so I'll keep looking.

Captain Gideon,

I've sent you quite a comprehensive list of liveries for the HYW.

Unfortunately my printer has broken down which precludes the chance of me sending more information to you for the Wars of the Roses etc.

 

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