Charlie's 15th century - Some long-overdue Burgundians! (Feb 28)

[Bloggard]

great array of figures.

love the photography: close-up / cropping.

[HappyChappy439]

Really impressive force of cavalry!

Also, it's interesting to see just how many defectors there were from the Burgundians to the French during the war of succession (and also interesting to see who didn't defect!)

[Charlie_]

love the photography: close-up / cropping.

Thanks, I got some good advice on this forum a few years ago about photography! A good but inexpensive camera, and careful cropping of photos.
I actually find getting a good all-in-one shot of large units like this always unsatisfactory, the best photos are always the close-ups from different angles.

Also, it's interesting to see just how many defectors there were from the Burgundians to the French during the war of succession (and also interesting to see who didn't defect!)

Yes, there were LOTS of them. And after the Treaty of Arras in 1482, even loads of those who had been fighting up til that point entered French service.

I guess a lot has to do with where their properties were. There's lots of accounts of nobles having their estates seized by the French straight away - those in the occupied territories like Picardy and the Duchy of Burgundy. So a lot of those fighting for Maximilian over the next few years effectively had no property. Then after the treaty of '82 they were offered their French-held estates back, and perhaps ended up living within what was now the French border.

I think the ones that stuck with Maximilian from the start were those whose territory was never threatened.

[Charlie_]

Two of these commanders I posted a while back, last summer I think, but one of them is new. I'll put the whole blog post here for the full info on them!

https://fullharness.blogspot.com/

Three Burgundian commanders

Here are three commander bases for the Burgundian side. All three of them have removable flags so can be used to represent anyone I have made flags for (only one of them actually has a Burgundian cross, so the other two could also be used as French or anything else). For this photoshoot I am using them to represent the various nobles who fought the French in the Franche-Comté and the duchy of Burgundy. This theatre of the war saw the nobility loyal to Duchess Mary fight back against the French occupation, led by the Prince of Orange and Guillaume and Claude de Vaudrey, who I have already done posts on. Click here to read my full account of the war in Burgundy, it's quite interesting. In these photos we have three of the Comtois rebels - Claude de Toulongeon, Simon de Quingey and Marc de Ray.

All the mounted models are Perry metals, all of one of which have had the all-important headswaps. The standard bearer on foot is from Steel Fist.



Claude de Toulongeon, Lord of La Bastie (?-1504) was one of the nobles who refused to surrender after the Franche-Comté was conquered in 1479, and continued to fight into the winter. He eventually fled to the Low Countries, and Louis XI had his Burgundian possessions confiscated. He was made a Knight of the Golden Fleece in 1481. Following the Treaty of Arras in 1482 he was supposed to have his territories returned to him but he struggled for the rest of his life to reclaim them, leading to a feud with his brother-in-law Guillaume de Vergy. Confusingly there was another Claude de Toulongeon around at the same time, his nephew, the Lord of Traves.







Simon de Quingey (1448-1523) as a young man had served Charles the Bold and fought in all his famous battles, actually having saved his life at Montlhéry in 1465. After the death of the duke in 1477 he remained loyal to Duchess Mary and defended Dole from the French. In 1478 he was captured leading troops into the French-held duchy of Burgundy, and was subsequently imprisoned in an iron cage. Eventually he was freed and afterwards served Louis XI.





Marc de Ray (?-1510) defended the castle of Rollans from the French and didn't surrender until the winter of 1479/80. That's all I've got on him, sorry!





And here's some biographical detail for a few others who fought in the conflict: I've located heraldry for some, but not all.

Guillaume de la Baume, Lord of Irlain (1430-1498) had been since 1472 a chamberlain in the household of Margaret of York (third wife of Charles the Bold), and later served both Mary and Maximilian, fighting the French in the duchy of Burgundy. Was made a Knight of the Golden Fleece in 1481. After the Treaty of Arras in 1482 he regained his Burgundian possessions, and by the reign of Charles VIII appears to have been serving the French.

Chrétien de Digoine, Lord of Thianges (?-1479/80) fought into 1479/80 and was one of the few who was actually executed when finally captured.

Jean de Neufchâtel, Lord of Montaigu (1419-1489) had previously been a councillor and chamberlain to both Philip the Good and Charles the Bold, a Knight of the Golden Fleece (1451) and Lieutenant-General of both Burgundies. He was given a place in Maximilian’s household in 1477, and helped defend the Franche-Comté. However he surrendered and swore allegiance to Louis XI in 1479.

Jean de Oiselay (?-1503) was captured in 1479. His wife (or possibly sister-in-law) helped defend the ramparts, halberd in hand, when the castle of Oiselay was taken.

Other names I've found reference to include Louis de Vienne, Leonard de Châlon and Charles de Châlon, plus the lords of Arban and Cottebrune, who I haven't been able to identify.

And here's a pic showing how the removable flags work. I might do some sort of how-to guide in the future if anyone's interested? The other two flags in this pic are for Guillaume de la Baume and Louis de Vienne.

[Atheling]

Beauties Charlies 

[HappyChappy439]

Great work! The swappable flags are a nice touch too!

I wonder if Marc de Ray has any connection to the Duchy of Cleves, given how similar his coat of arms is to the dukes' there

[magyar]

Very interesting, and great paint work!
Some how-to on the flags would be definitely appreciated.

[MaleGriffin]

Excellent idea! I love the switchable flags! I'd like to hear how they hold up to repeated switching.

[Charlie_]

I wonder if Marc de Ray has any connection to the Duchy of Cleves, given how similar his coat of arms is to the dukes' there

I don't think so, I wouldn't read too much into the similar heraldry - in researching this I've learned that a LOT of families had identical coats of arms! (at least in the basic non-differenced versions)

Some how-to on the flags would be definitely appreciated.

Is it a guide for making them switchable, or a more complete guide to making flags digitally you are interested in? I'm planning to do a guide for the latter someday IF enough people are genuinely interested.

Excellent idea! I love the switchable flags! I'd like to hear how they hold up to repeated switching.

Surprisingly well actually! I can't imagine them ever getting damaged unless I did something stupid like dropped them in a cup of tea.... And if they did, I can just print out another copy.

[magyar]

Charlie_,
I'd vote for the guide to making flags digitally. The "switchability" part appears less challenging. However, some hints may be useful here, too 

[Charlie_]

Charlie_,
I'd vote for the guide to making flags digitally. The "switchability" part appears less challenging. However, some hints may be useful here, too 

It's on my to-do list. It will be quite a detailed guide with lots of screenshots, might take quite a bit of time to put together.

If I do a little post about making the switchable flags, it will be more a case of some useful hints and tips!

[Atheling]

It's on my to-do list. It will be quite a detailed guide with lots of screenshots, might take quite a bit of time to put together.

If I do a little post about making the switchable flags, it will be more a case of some useful hints and tips!

That would be brilliant Charlie and appreciated by many I would think. Tech sets my head spinning! 

[LCpl McDoom]

Lovely work, very impressed. I've been doing something similar for flag-switching as well. So I'm another voter for the possible future article on digital flag-making please 

[Charlie_]

French light cavalry

Here are two units of French 'light' cavalry, twenty figures in total. As far as I'm aware in the late 15th century there weren't actually dedicated light cavalry formations in the French or Burgundian military, so these should really be seen as informal groupings of (mostly) lightly armoured horsemen pulled together for specific tasks. As such they will probably just see action in smaller skirmish-style games rather than large battles.



The French 'lance' featured two mounted archers to each man-at-arms. Would these archers always be fielded on foot as missile troops, or could they also double up as lightly-equipped lancers, either to support the mounted men-at-arms or used as scouts, etc? Certainly by some point in the 16th century the term 'archer' actually came to refer to an armoured lancer, so could the start of this be traced back as early as 1477? I don't know, but it makes sense to me that at times some of the 'archers' might be seen fighting on horseback with a light lance. It's not actually clear to me if the French 'lance' also featured a coustillier - I've found conflicting accounts.



One of the units features mostly fully armoured men, so in fact represents men-at-arms in a 'light cavalry' role, or perhaps just suitably based for small skirmish games.



The heraldic banner is swappable, but the one you see here is for Gaston du Lion. He was a nobleman who fought in Burgundy under Georges de la Trémoille, so at least in 1477 and probably for longer after la Trémoille's dismissal. I came across his name from an account of a letter he wrote to la Trémoille, bragging about having routed a force of Swiss outside the walls of Dole. The idea seems to be that his boasting suggested to la Trémoille that he would have an easy victory when he came to besiege the town, but in that he would be disappointed! I haven't been able to find out much more about him other than he was Lord of Besaudun and Seneschal of Toulouse, and his brother was Archbishop of Toulouse. The flag is his family arms, but I can't say if those were the ones he would have used in 1477.



The figures are mostly a mix of Perry plastics and metals, plus a couple of old Wargames Foundry sculpts converted to fit in with the modern Perry range. I've got a few of the metal Perry horses in there as well - they are noticeably smaller than the plastic ones, but I raised their height with an extra 1.5mm Renedra base and now they blend in much better. I wish I'd used more of them for my earlier cavalry units now.... There's also two plastic horses from the Perry AWI range - once the 19th century saddlery is carefully carved off they fit into the 15th century quite fine.

[bigredbat]

Absolutely terrific minis!   In the mid c.16th the archers that weren't supporting the gendarmes fought under a guidon flag on the wing.  I wonder if this might have been the case, earlier?