A first game of 40K 8th edition

[TWD]

We played a game of new 40k on launch day - nothing too taxing, just a simple line up and fight affair.
Dice were rolled.
Plastic (and a few metal) men were pushed around.
One rule thing was unclear.
Fun was had.



More pictures, brief AAR and some thoughts over on my blog
http://tomstoysoldiers.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/40k-8th-ed-first-game.html

[Elbows]

While I'm not fully convinced I'll be diving into 8th, I've got an index on the way and will take a crack at it later this week (there is a large group here who plays, so it's a way to roll some dice).

It can't be worse than 7th.

[Sir_Theo]

Inwanttm to reserve judgement till I've seen the indexes but so far I'm feeling pretty positive. Seems entirely the correct direction.

[Hobby Services]

One rule thing was unclear.

If you mean burnas hitting automatically on overwatch, you played it correctly.  Figuring out how to deal with flamer weapons during assaults is a new tactical puzzle.  Some units (like the 20 burna mob) just cannot be safely charged by much of anything, but you can get around it by throwing a sacrifice unit in first to eat their overwatch shot.

[TWD]

If you mean burnas hitting automatically on overwatch, you played it correctly. 

Whilst I agree with your interpretation I wonder how you can be so sure that's the right version of the rule. I can see how it can be read as the opposite.

Figuring out how to deal with flamer weapons during assaults is a new tactical puzzle.  Some units (like the 20 burna mob) just cannot be safely charged by much of anything, but you can get around it by throwing a sacrifice unit in first to eat their overwatch shot.

Except there's no Overwatch "shot" any more, you can fire multiple times at different chargers as long as you're not in combat. So if your sacrificial unit dies on the way in or fails to complete it's charge then the burnas can continue to Overwatch fire against any subsequent chargers.

[Hobby Services]

Whilst I agree with your interpretation I wonder how you can be so sure that's the right version of the rule. I can see how it can be read as the opposite.

I'm assuming the GW demo guy I saw doing it that way knew what he was doing.  Which admittedly may be a risk.

Except there's no Overwatch "shot" any more, you can fire multiple times at different chargers as long as you're not in combat. So if your sacrificial unit dies on the way in or fails to complete it's charge then the burnas can continue to Overwatch fire against any subsequent chargers.

All you need is to get one "sacrifice" to get into combat and the target unit is shut down.  It's not much of a challenge IME, although you can't pull it off with very small/squishy units or (most) lone characters.  A 20-ork burna squad will probably require some thinning down before you charge them, but the more normal 1-3 flamer weapons you'll be facing just isn't enough to reliably kill every single charging model even with help from the other hit-on-6 guns in the target unit.

Hmmm.  20 burnas = 20d6 autohit S4 0AP shots = 70 hits = 35 wounds on a T4 target.  Average kills a full Marine squad if they don't have any outside buffs at all.  Won't completely roast a five-man Terminator squad (because yay, 2 wounds apiece).  Might or might not stop a six-model Tyranid warrior squad.  Certainly won't stop a 30-strong tidal wave of termagants cold, and then the genestealers behind them have a safe stroll into combat.

Even the extreme cases don't make overwatch totally reliable.

[TWD]

Ork burnas are also only D3, not D6 like Flamers, so even less reliable. Still pretty scary though!

[Agis]

Hmm, Overwatch still bugs me also.
It still favors low BS armies like Orks.
You only hit on 6s, not much of a deal for Orks, but why are SM also hit on 6s will never make sense for me.

Simple house rule: treat all Overwatch shooting as if shot by a Heavy weapon after moving, = -1 to hit.
SM would hit on 4+, Tau on 5+, Orks on 6+.
Makes IMO more sense and is equally simple. In addition no auto hits on overwatch.

Just imagine a SoB Retributor squad with Heavy Flamers... 

[Hobby Services]

Hmm, Overwatch still bugs me also.
It still favors low BS armies like Orks.
You only hit on 6s, not much of a deal for Orks, but why are SM also hit on 6s will never make sense for me.

It's probably a balance issue.  Unlike 2nd edition you don't give up anything to get your overwatch shots, they just happen automatically if you're charged.  If you had to skip shooting (and could respond to any enemy movement, like the old days) then sure, hitting on BS or BS-1 would be fine.  But for free defensive fire that can (in theory) happen multiple times in a turn?  Too strong in a game that wants melee to be viable.

Now you could debate why or if melee should be viable in a scifi game, but I have a Tyranid hive fleet worth of models that says it needs to be. 

In addition no auto hits on overwatch.

Nah, charging face first into a flamethrower should be a painful experience.  Even my hormagaunts wouldn't argue that.  Besides, flamers need a clear role now that templates are gone and being the go-to weapon type for defensive fire seems reasonable.  That's especially true since the cover rules bizarrely apply a bonus to the target's save rather than a penalty to shooter accuracy.  If it was harder to hit troops in cover then flamers would have that going for them as well, but as it stands they're actually pretty bad at bunker clearance due to low AP values.

Now that I could see house ruling.

Just imagine a SoB Retributor squad with Heavy Flamers... 

My wallet can't stand the strain of dreaming about Sisters.  Why oh why didn't I buy an army of them back in the Nineties?   

[Elbows]

Overwatch in 8E is much like other overwatch uses in 40K...it's a bit of a mess.  I agree it doesn't make much sense that it evens the playing field for everything in the game.

[Pictors Studio]

I agree with Agis about the overwatch thing.  It seems that it could be better if there were some acknowledgment that a unit that is better at shooting is also going to be better at shooting quickly, even if that weren't always the case. 

There is no initiative score anymore so you couldn't use that to determine overwatch or snap shots.  If you had initiative and the BS was like it was you could substitute initiative for BS for overwatch. 

They were often the same anyway, but could be different.  A model with a BS of 4 and an initiative of 3 would hit on a 3+ normally but a 4+ on overwatch.  Alternately give them a penalty to it so it is Initiative -1 or something. 

I'm not sure that a -1 would be enough, as even at 4+ charging into a squad carrying weapons would be tough.  Maybe half it, so 3+ goes to 5+, 4+ to 6, 2+ to 4+ and so on. 

[TWD]

If you change the overwatch rules you'd have to adjust the points values of the troops -  Marines suddenly get a lot better at defending obstacles and given quite a few scenarios require the taking and holding of objectives....

I'm not terribly bothered about "realism" in a game involving Space Orcs and gravity defying vehicles. I just wanted the rule to be clear

One other thing, if someone wants to use 20 Burnaz against me he darn well better have 20 Burnaz. That's five (only four in each) boxes of Burnaz he needs to buy assemble and paint.
If you turn up with a single (old, metal) Burna and 19 undercoated Black Reach Ork Boys three of which you've bluetacked oil cans to the back of then you'll be looking for someone else to play against 😁

Theoryhammer is all well and good but you need to spend your money and paint your soldiers (mostly - I know some of mine are wearing very black uniforms   ) if you want to put your tactics into practice.

[Elbows]

That's always a bugbear of mine with 40K.  The "flavor of the week" meta army which is all counts-as models.  Make your models and use them.  If you're tactically inflexible, that's your fault.

[Inso]

Surely, if they pay the points and have made it clear what they are, why should it matter if they are counts as? I have a Squat army, tailored to the Astra Militarum codex... EVERY miniature is counts as.

Also, unless you try stuff out, how are you going to learn?

Seems a bit snobbish not to play someone just because they haven't spent all their money on something just 'because'...

[TWD]

So you want to take some unit that the Interweb has told you is made entirely of Cheesy win but you don't want to put any effort, or money into actually modeling those soldiers?

And then when someone works out how to beat it you'll just proxy the next latest UberWin unit?

Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable being a massive snob about that kind of WAAC nonsense. Buy your soldiers, paint 'em up and we can play. Otherwise you can look elsewhere for "learning"

Fortunately I only ever play with about six people all of whom meet my rigorous standards, so this is never an issue.