Italians in North Africa

[njetkulturny]

Could you be more specific about which vehicles exactly?

Tanks are quite easy acounted for. For SPG and APC it another story.

Fire away.

Cheers  njetkulturny

[italwars]

Can you point me at sources?  I have been trying to find what vehicles were available where for a few months, and I am getting very contradictory data.

yes if you specify wich period and theater..or are you referring to material find after the armistice?

[Sinewgrab]

The theater that has my interest currently is North Africa, both pre- and post-Rommel becoming involved.  I mainly have been trying to find out what transports they were using, which of their AFVs were in use where, and what they may have done with those.

Some of the sources I have run into indicate that the 90/53 made an appearance in Tunisia before the British and Americans pushed the Axis out, while others say that they were never used anywhere but Sicily.  The same with the AS37 transport - apparently, according to one source, the prototypes made it to North Africa, but the actual produced vehicle was used in the Balkans and Greece as a police transport.

I honestly started picking things up just because they were shiny, but I really would like a stronger base of knowledge to work from.  I didn't 'desert' my Bassoto, because everyone seems to agree it never left Italy, and it seems to have been used more by the Germans than the Italians.

And did the 11/39 just sort of show up and immediately go away with the introduction of the 13/40 and 14/41?

[Battle Brush Sigur]

Very cool thread and good discussions going on. I'll keenly follow (not the least because I do Italians for Northern Africa as well).

[italwars]

And did the 11/39 just sort of show up and immediately go away with the introduction of the 13/40 and 14/41?

i'll look at my sources and try to give you exact feedback..
at memory i can answer you to some points:
no the 11/39 did'nt fade away with the apearance of M13
Bassotto and AS37 not only used by Germans and, in case of the troop carrier, by Italian in the balkans..but also by RSI Die hards Italians...which is one my favourite small armies in 20mm
from memory i can also tell you that i have on my sources about both the bassotto and the P40 (which you didnt ask about but his a very rare italian tank )they were both used even by the Royal Italian Army (REI)  in a very short clash vs Germans near Rome the 8th of september 1943 following the Italian betrayal of the German ally after the secret armistice with Allied nations...my source, from a witness, told about brand new tanks without any insigna and never tested

[Sinewgrab]

Excellent - you have no idea how I love being able to get a viewpoint from someone not British or German - there seems to be an overwhelming amount "they were there but didn't matter" in the books available in the US.  No discussion of inferior AFVs, or a lack of leadership in key positions, or most importantly broken supply chains, just acting like they didn't really exist, when it is obvious that over half the Axis forces that chased the British into Egypt were obviously REI, not just DAK.  Frustrating - it is like trying to find a history book over here that admits wrongdoing in the treatment of Native Americans...

On less inflammatory notes, do you have anything more concrete on the 90/53?  To me, that beast should have gone straight to the desert as soon as they came up with it.  Matildas and Valentines would have been less than pleased to see it.

[Truscott Trotter]

http://www.comandosupremo.com/semovente9053.html
As the Surrender was 12th May is it likely that they got there in time?

http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/2-Italy/04-SPG/Semovente-M41(90-53)/File/Semovente-M41M(90-53).htm
The 30 copies ordered in January 1942 were delivered in April. On 16 August of the same year they were deemed operational; 24 were delivered to the 10th Reggimento Artiglieria Controcarro Semovente (CLXIme, CLXIIme and CLXIIIme gruppi). Each gruppo owned 8 Semoventi, 8 Portamunizioni L / 40 with their trailer and 4 Carro Commando M41. The Semovente of 90/53 M41M was originally designed to counter Russian tanks, however it was deployed against the Allied tanks landed in Sicily. Four of them were captured by the Allies. The six vehicles remaining in reserve were requisitioned by the Germans after the armistice (September 8, 1943).

[Sinewgrab]

If anyone doubts that this is the true use of the internet - sharing of information otherwise impossible to find - they are a porn addict.

I would think that the timeline would allow them to be there - I guess I will have to go searching to see if any of those three groups mentioned joined either Ariete or Centauro...

I think my head hurts.

[Corso]

Interesting thread.

I found this book very good - Italian Army Elite Units & Special Forces 1940–43 by Osprey.

[Truscott Trotter]

Quick google search on the 10th Reggimento Artiglieria Controcarro Semovente
badly translated from here http://www.vecio.it/cms/index.php/reparti-alpini/supporti/234-10-raggruppamento-artiglieria-controcarro
10th Grouping Artillery Countercarriage

 Last modified: Monday, 21 January 2013 20:29
 Published: Friday, 12 August 2011 10:02
(Subsequently, the 10th Avisio Self-Propelled Artillery Group)


On September 9, 1939 in Verona, the 10th Armored Artillery Group was formed from the deposit of the 5th Artillery Regiment Armada. The department is composed of Groups XXIII and XXIV from 149/35 and LVII from 152/13.
In June 1940 he went to the Dependencies of the 2nd Armed Forces (1st Armed) with Groups XIII, XIV and XXIII of 105/28. From July to October it is under the command of the V Army Corps (2nd Army), then return to the mobilization center.
On April 2, 1941, the Group is again with the V Army Corps with new Groups, XVIII and XXIV from 149/35 and LXVII from 152/13. On May 7, 1942, he handed over the Heavy Groups and assumed the new constitution of 90/53 CLXI, CLXII and CLXIII Countercars Self-Propelled Groups. From now on it assumes the name of the 10th Self-propelled artillery pool.
In July 1942 he was assigned to the 4th Army in Piedmont and Liguria.
He is renamed to the 10th Artillery Controcarro Pool and in November he moved to Sicily at the 6th Army, where he took part in the defensive battle in the Canicattì area.
On August 31, 1943, the department was dissolved for war events, the survivors transferred to the warehouse of the 2nd Artillery Regiment of Armed Forces of Acqui to constitute the 236th Artillery Controversial Self-Propelled Regiment for the Centaur Legionary Division, but on 8 September 1943 The deposit is deleted.

and here  http://www.comandosupremo.com/forums/topic/1093-semovente/

4) 90/53 Self propelled gun (M41 chassis). Only 30 built during 1942 and on 27.4.1942 assigned to the eastern front (8th army). However, on 12.7.1942 this employment was canceled. The 3 batalions (CLXI,CLXII,CLXIII, two batteries each) were in Nettunia (near Roma) for training and later, regrouped in the 10th "Raggruppamento artiglieria controcarro da 90/53 semovente", on 15(or maybe 18.12.1942 arrived in Sicily with 24 SP guns (the other 6, the reserve, remained in Nettunia). They were located: CLXI in Canicattì, later in S.Michele, CLXII in Salemi and CLXIII in Paternò.
They fought there in 1943. All lost (most for mechanical breakdowns: the M41 chassis and powertrain were overloaded with such heavy gun; the last 2 were abandoned in Messina).

[Sinewgrab]

Well, I guess that kind of put a nail in.  Well, I guess I won't use it when we are doing proper historical games.  I need to get some Saharianas though...and I still want a Bersaglieri Motorcycle squad.

[Truscott Trotter]

Look if its North Africa and they are using Tigers then they must be including Tunisia - so what can't you include Sicily?
In a BA reinforced selector you can have them and its not like you are going to be mixing them in with tanks that were not in Sicily anyway as you only have one armoured slot?
I actually prefer this for coolness factor though

[Sinewgrab]

So I added a couple more vehicles - still creeping slowly forward with infantry, as I find vehicles more fun to paint. 

An Autoblinda 43 (I think) and an L6-40.

[Sinewgrab]

Soooo, I really haven't posted anything to this thread in a while.

But one of my friends pushed my Bolt Action button, and we started talking about what we wanted to do when all of this is behind us, and North Africa came up.  And I started putting together and painting all of the stuff I had collected and gotten distracted away from.

So, new stuff!

A beautiful little Fiat command car from Company B



A Sahariana from the same company



A couple of trucks




A truck with a big gun...this thing dies easily in the BA rules, but boy does it make Shermans and Crusaders pay attention to sight lines...



And an adorable little CV33 -  why it's so cut...AAh why am I on fire!?



And a group of Semovente - all four are 3D prints, from 2 different ebay sellers.  I'm impressed with the cost, but not as much with the prints.  The lines definitely detract from the image, but they look okay at table distance, and allowed me to fill out the ranks without breaking the bank.  They were about $8 each.



And a group shot - this is literally everything I have painted for the Italians, including my precious Bassoto.



Now, I better get to infantry.

[Ultravanillasmurf]

Nice selection.