Star Wars: Legion large scale FFG ground combat minis wargame

[psyberwyche]

I've seen surprisingly little about the game on LAF, even though it's out now. As such, I didn't have a lot to go on except for a load of frothing reviews, mostly from 'normies' (those strange, non-wargaming types who read Polygon and GeekNSundry for their game reviews  ). So... I bought the core set.

Straight up, there's a lot to like: the game system is generally cool, there are lots of minis in the box, and it's Star Wars.

BUT, there's also a lot to dislike if you have experience of miniature gaming and painting. Strap yourselves in:

1. The miniatures aren't great. There, I said it. Scale-wise, they're around 38mm, and yet they manage to be less detailed than their 28mm Imperial Assault counterparts. They're made from cheap bendy plastic, probably in China, which can't be assembled with poly cement, and are an absolute pain to clean of mold lines. Credit where it's due, however: the Stormtroopers work really well, although some of their poses are a little unnatural.


(Knight models Superman shown for scale, purely because he's technically the same or similar scale. Note the very different proportions).


(This abomination is supposed to be Mark Hamill, before the crash).


(Not my photo. This is allegedly Han Solo. And I think that's the studio paint job. WTF?)

2. The rulebook. Oh, god. It's laid out in typical FFG style, which means it's a catalogue of clauses and sub-clauses, with the core rules obscurely hidden away. When you get to to them, they're really good, but you have to work at it. But, ah, it's not actually a rulebook - it's a quickstart guide. The actual 50-page rulebook is online as a free PDF. The thing in the box is only there to let you play a starter scenario with the minis in the box. Because...

3. You don't get enough miniatures to form a 'legal' army for either faction. Not only that, but you get around half as many dice as you need for an average roll. So yes, just like X-Wing, you need to buy two core boxes to play a 'proper' game.

4. On the subject of rules, let's talk about the 'measuring tools'. A hinged plastic construction. I've read and re-red the 2 pages of movement rules over and over, and I can't work out why they don't use a tape measure. In fact, when you have a board full of miniatures and scenery, the measuring tool makes things more difficult. And they handily come in inch increments (3, 5, 7). The only time the tool is important is when moving vehicles, because they can't turn more than 90 degrees. Personally, I'd ditch the page of vehicle movement rules and say 'Vehicles can move 5", but can't turn more than 90 degrees', but what do I know?    - Anyway, those measuring tools have cool Star Wars patterns on them, so I'm chopping them up to use as scenery.

You also have a range ruler, which is pieced together from bits of plastic, to measure 'range 1, range 2. range 3'. and it just so happens that each increment is... 6" long... 

5. Aesthetics. Why oh why are the first wave of releases based around Hoth and Endor forces, except for Luke, who's in his Bespin outfit? Does this mean we'll see Ewoks early on? Hardly the best way to sell it. and it means that the beloved characters already scheduled (like Leia and Han) are neither in archetypal outfits, nor best poses. Added to the fact that they don't look like the actors, and I'm seriously wondering why they've bothered.

Overall, there really *is* a lot to like, but not if you're a die-hard collector and painter. This is a cheap plastic mass battle game, with echoes of FFG's usual business model - buy a cheapo toy, when you're really paying for a mountain of cards. I'm really not going all-in based on this experience. If they raise the quality of the miniatures, I might buy a few characters to paint up later down the line. And I'll probably be house-ruling it, a lot, to make it more of a skirmish game than a huge unit-based game. Because Star Wars is a heroic space opera!

The only reason I'm a bit cross is because I'm a huge fan of the franchise, and I particularly wanted a bit of care and attention to be spent on the miniatures of beloved characters. Who the heck is sculpting these? And how are they getting approved by Disney?

I... I think I might not be the target audience... 

[OSHIROmodels]

I... I think I might not be the target audience... 

  Welcome to the club 

[ichwillauch]

I read several times that it was mentioned here and in the internet that the miniatures aren't great. That is an argument that made me still hesitate to buy it. On the other side looking on the first picture above the details are far better than my painting skills....

[Agis]

I've seen surprisingly little about the game on LAF, even though it's out now. As such, I didn't have a lot to go on except for a load of frothing reviews, mostly from 'normies' (those strange, non-wargaming types who read Polygon and GeekNSundry for their game reviews  ). So... I bought the core set.

Well, I did at least posted some mini comparison and my 1st paint job.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=108236.0

Straight up, there's a lot to like: the game system is generally cool, there are lots of minis in the box, and it's Star Wars.

My impression exactly, there are countless similarities to my ViDe system so I have to like it.

1. The miniatures aren't great. There, I said it. Scale-wise, they're around 38mm, and yet they manage to be less detailed than their 28mm Imperial Assault counterparts. They're made from cheap bendy plastic, probably in China, which can't be assembled with poly cement, and are an absolute pain to clean of mold lines. …
(Not my photo. This is allegedly Han Solo. And I think that's the studio paint job. WTF?)

Well IMO they are keeping the budget tight when it come to minis. Luke, Veers, Leia and Han are all bad minis. Vader is OK.

2. The rulebook. Oh, god. It's laid out in typical FFG style, which means it's a catalogue of clauses and sub-clauses, with the core rules obscurely hidden away. When you get to to them, they're really good, but you have to work at it. But, ah, it's not actually a rulebook - it's a quickstart guide. The actual 50-page rulebook is online as a free PDF. The thing in the box is only there to let you play a starter scenario with the minis in the box. Because...
3. You don't get enough miniatures to form a 'legal' army for either faction. Not only that, but you get around half as many dice as you need for an average roll. So yes, just like X-Wing, you need to buy two core boxes to play a 'proper' game.

Agreed on all! I was amazed to realize that I need more minis just to have a small platoon sized “legal” force!

4. On the subject of rules, let's talk about the 'measuring tools'. A hinged plastic construction. I've read and re-red the 2 pages of movement rules over and over, and I can't work out why they don't use a tape measure. In fact, when you have a board full of miniatures and scenery, the measuring tool makes things more difficult. And they handily come in inch increments (3, 5, 7). The only time the tool is important is when moving vehicles, because they can't turn more than 90 degrees. Personally, I'd ditch the page of vehicle movement rules and say 'Vehicles can move 5", but can't turn more than 90 degrees', but what do I know?    - Anyway, those measuring tools have cool Star Wars patterns on them, so I'm chopping them up to use as scenery.
You also have a range ruler, which is pieced together from bits of plastic, to measure 'range 1, range 2. range 3'. and it just so happens that each increment is... 6" long... 

LOL, my thoughts also. Why oh why. Maybe they want to be separate from normal wargames, I don’t know. However I triggered an interesting discussion on the FFG forum when revealing that I rebased my minis on 25mm based, because I do not like the cone look of the original FFG bases.
An eager tournament oriented crowd pointed out that the bases are 27mm, and that all my minis are now illegal! Depsite the fact that I am not planning to play any FFG GTs, some argued that the additional 2mm are relevant. Maybe some are thinking that the movement ruler brings some boardgame like precision to the game!

[psyberwyche]

Well, I did at least posted some mini comparison and my 1st paint job.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=108236.0

Sorry Agis! I did a forum search and didn't even find that. Great paintwork, and I see you've used the IA Han, which I'm also planning to do (just going to rebase so he's a few mm taller).

However I triggered an interesting discussion on the FFG forum when revealing that I rebased my minis on 25mm based, because I do not like the cone look of the original FFG bases.
An eager tournament oriented crowd pointed out that the bases are 27mm, and that all my minis are now illegal! Depsite the fact that I am not planning to play any FFG GTs, some argued that the additional 2mm are relevant. Maybe some are thinking that the movement ruler brings some boardgame like precision to the game!

I saw a very similar discussion on one of the Facebook pages - someone had ordered a bunch of laser cut 25mm clear bases, and all the tournament guys were very vocal about it - they're 2mm diameter less, and 2mm lower, so they're 'illegal'. This to me is FFG's core audience - the competitive gamer who just wants stuff they can play with quickly out of the box, no ambiguity, and aesthetics are secondary to gameplay.

So I placed an order for a load of slim profile 25mm bases today, and I'm mounting my Speeder Bikes on ovals... 

[psyberwyche]

I also just spent a little time replacing Vader's cloak, because I hate the sculpting of the plastic one:



It's going to take a while to green stuff the back, so I won't show that part yet :-D

[Mr Tough Guy]

Well, I did at least posted some mini comparison and my 1st paint job.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=108236.0My impression exactly, there are countless similarities to my ViDe system so I have to like it. ;)Well IMO they are keeping the budget tight when it come to minis. Luke, Veers, Leia and Han are all bad minis. Vader is OK.Agreed on all! I was amazed to realize that I need more minis just to have a small platoon sized “legal” force!
LOL, my thoughts also. Why oh why. Maybe they want to be separate from normal wargames, I don’t know. However I triggered an interesting discussion on the FFG forum when revealing that I rebased my minis on 25mm based, because I do not like the cone look of the original FFG bases.
An eager tournament oriented crowd pointed out that the bases are 27mm, and that all my minis are now illegal! Depsite the fact that I am not planning to play any FFG GTs, some argued that the additional 2mm are relevant. Maybe some are thinking that the movement ruler brings some boardgame like precision to the game!

I'm guessing most of the people on the FFG forum all come from X-wing, so the idea of different bases is completly foreign to them and they're used to movement templates. I guess if that's all you know the system looks like it would work perfectly, but for any one who's used to regular wargaming it feels very restricting

[eilif]

I didn't try the game myself but I had the chance to see alot of the minis in action at Adepticon last weekend. I agree that up close they aren't great, but from a distance they look pretty good and I don't know that my tabletop-quality paint jobs woul beneifit from better sculpts

If they had given a Legion starter box away in the swag bag the way they did for Runewars last year, I'd probably give it a go but instead, I'm going to continue collecting Imperial Assault and probably ignore this. I alreay have one Star Wars game I don't play (though I'm hoping to introduce it to my kids in a year or so) and I'm not interested in a bunch of figs in a new scale. 

As for gameplay, it looks alot like Runewars to me.  A couple months ago that would have been a real selling point as I felt the Runewars rules were pretty good.  However, since the closing of the one store around here that had some active players that game just died. The Runewars folks were pretty casual but I don't have a desire to get into the inevitable tournament style of play that was X-wing an will likely be Legion as well.

As others have said it just feels like an opportunity was lost here. If the scale was the same as ImpAssault I'd definitely at least have bought some of the Legion figs (maybe even the whole game) for the crossover potential and possibly even to use with other rulesets like "Blasters and Bulkheads". 

Lastly, it's probably a bit self-righteous of me, but the scale thing really annoys me and I don't want to reward FFG for this kind of thing by purchasing Legion.   I'm a bit fickle so maybe something will change but for now this is definitely a skip.

[Elbows]

But, here's my main issue...

I like Star Wars.  Not a massive nut, but I like it quite a bit (original trilogy, really).  No one has ever put out a consistently available line of wargaming miniatures for the game, and no one else is likely to do so in the foreseeable future.

So...do I just bite the bullet and collect the minis - dumping the cards/dice on eBay to recoup costs, etc.  I've zero interest in partaking in an FFG gaming scheme, but I "think" I could put up with the miniatures, particularly if I found them at discount, etc.  So, as the best option available and likely for some time, do I get involved?

I'm leaning toward yes at the moment, even if I just stockpile the minis away for a rainy day.

[OSHIROmodels]

I don't think Legion will provide a range of figures that your usual gamer* would find compete. They'll suit the tournament crowd (which is fine, as it's really a tournament game) but for us gamers that are looking for a comprehensive range, casualties, more troops in different poses etc I don't think we'll be getting it. As stated before, there's no chance to mix and match with other ranges either, which is a shame 

I was having a quick chat about it with my mate the other day and I was bemoaning the scale change. He didn't have a problem with it until I pointed out the above and went "oh yeah, that's a bugger".


*Not meant in a insulting way to those that bought into Legion and the ethos behind it of course.

[eilif]

But, here's my main issue...

I like Star Wars.  Not a massive nut, but I like it quite a bit (original trilogy, really).  No one has ever put out a consistently available line of wargaming miniatures for the game, and no one else is likely to do so in the foreseeable future.

So...do I just bite the bullet and collect the minis - dumping the cards/dice on eBay to recoup costs, etc.  I've zero interest in partaking in an FFG gaming scheme, but I "think" I could put up with the miniatures, particularly if I found them at discount, etc.  So, as the best option available and likely for some time, do I get involved?

I'm leaning toward yes at the moment, even if I just stockpile the minis away for a rainy day.

Despite my feelings about the game for you I'd actually say yes.
Legion being released means that it will be possible to acquire SW wargaming figs in a variety and number previously impossible. It's possible there will be more and better figs in the future, but it's also equally possible that this will be the only SW wargame for a long time.

The size is annoying but I will add that there are a fair number of 35mm+ ranges coming out these days including a fair bit from Reaper Chrnonoscope so chances of adding some figures from other ranges will exist.

I feel similarly about LOTR figures. I don't actively play the game, but I liked the first three Jackson films alot.  These are probably the only wargaming figure range that will be released of those films and eventually the line will end so I scoop those figures up when I find them cheap in the hope that someday I'll play some game with them with my kids. 


However, as for Legion I'd only recommend it if...

-You're ok with some sculpt limits and or doing conversions.  As was mentioned, you're probably going to get 4-6 poses per troop type, no casualties, etc.  I did alot of repositionaing of minis for runwars.  It wasn't hard (another benefit of soft PVC'ish plastics) and the look is much better but it would have looked very samey if I'd used the figuers stock

-You aren't a completionist. Sounds like you aren't so that's good.  I think that FFG will release ALOT of minis (look at how IA was/is) and the selection will be good, but there will surely be gaps.

-You don't have a way to acquire the older prepainted figs. From what I've seen, the prepaints are better proportioned, similar quality in sculpt and better sized for compatibility with other ranges.

-You're willing to put down serious cash.  There will likely be some sales, but SW as a property is still hot and I don't forsee alot of discount bin Legion figs.

[nic-e]

As for gameplay, it looks alot like Runewars to me.  A couple months ago that would have been a real selling point as I felt the Runewars rules were pretty good.  However, since the closing of the one store around here that had some active players that game just died. The Runewars folks were pretty casual but I don't have a desire to get into the inevitable tournament style of play that was X-wing an will likely be Legion as well.

Ahh runewars. That really did drop like a turd in the night didn't it?
We ran demos of it at salute alongside our x wing table, and while i admit the X wing table may have over shadowed runewars a bit (I offered to build them a runewars table, I really did.) the game got a luke warm "eh. i guess" from most players.
The fact that terrain seemed to be a hinderance to the mechanics of the game annoyed me, And the miniatures weren't so great that warhammer players used them as proxies.
It seemed like FFG desperately trying to shoehorn something into the big warhammer shaped hole left by age of sigmar, which age of sigmar promptly filled for most players.


I sort of don't like FFG and I'm not sure why, Bu ti think Legion has highlighted what it is i don't like. The tournament/comp focus in game design often acts in detriment to fun or creativity in the hobby and the actual physical product is often a set of high production cards alongside some "good enough" miniatures.

[eilif]

Ahh runewars. That really did drop like a turd in the night didn't it?
We ran demos of it at salute alongside our x wing table, and while i admit the X wing table may have over shadowed runewars a bit (I offered to build them a runewars table, I really did.) the game got a luke warm "eh. i guess" from most players.
The fact that terrain seemed to be a hinderance to the mechanics of the game annoyed me, And the miniatures weren't so great that warhammer players used them as proxies.
It seemed like FFG desperately trying to shoehorn something into the big warhammer shaped hole left by age of sigmar, which age of sigmar promptly filled for most players.


I sort of don't like FFG and I'm not sure why, Bu ti think Legion has highlighted what it is i don't like. The tournament/comp focus in game design often acts in detriment to fun or creativity in the hobby and the actual physical product is often a set of high production cards alongside some "good enough" miniatures.

I agree about the tournament/comp focus for FFG's wargames. 

FFG can make a great boardgame and some especially nice aventure boardgames.  I even like the fact that the rules for their wargames are incredibly tight without alot of room for re/mis-interpretation. 

However, they all seem to be aimed at tournament play and structured around rewarding those who are cleverest in listbuilding which basically comes down to the collecting and stacking of cards and abilities.  Supposedly they've listened to criticism in that you don't have to buy multiple factions to get all the cards you'll need for a certain faction, but you still have to buy alot of units (potnentially ones you don't want an possibly multiples) to get all the cards you will need to play competitively.   If I wanted that experience I'd be playing CCG's.

I think one of the things that I liked about Runewars was that the folks I was playing with had other competitive game obessions and were not as serious about Runewars. I could show up with some units and some cards I'd picked out and have a reasonably good chance of winning based on tactics.  If I'm honest I have to admit that if Runewars had taken off -and my local shop supporting it hadn't closed- I might well have gotten turned off by the same tournament mindset that folks bring to X-wing that would likely have taken over Runewars too.

At least at the end of the line I've still got a nearly-finished army of good-guy figures
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2017/05/04/runewars-daqan-army-finished/
that I like and plan to use in Kings of War someday.

[Derek H]

Overall, there really *is* a lot to like, but not if you're a die-hard collector and painter. This is a cheap plastic mass battle game, with echoes of FFG's usual business model - buy a cheapo toy, when you're really paying for a mountain of cards.

If there's one thing it's not, that's cheap. 

[Dr DeAth]

Is it me, or does it look more like Patrick Swayze