Alternate History

[warbeads]

My apologies to those who saw this on TMP.  Looking for more fertile soil to consider:

On TMP I asked/said (with minor spelling corrections here) -

"Okay, I am looking at various possibilities for changing history for Fictional 19th Century, Old West, and 1840-1870's Superheroes setting (probably not all at the exact same game.)

What I want is the possibility of Spain, France, and Britain having a presence in North America.

USA should be present in some format but possibly/almost probably constrained to the East Coast by other nations/colonies or divided (New England Secession, anyone, or Southern Secession earlier then the ACW) or truncated somehow.

Mexico independent.

Canada part of somebodies empire.

So, where would you deviate from our history? What events would you include to create this alternate reality? How do you keep Spain and Britain involved if France keeps Canada and Mexico is independent – via the Caribbean or Central America?"

Lots of good ideas there.  If you are not on TMP or have something add that is not posted there I invite your comments/ideas/fantasies.

[Westfalia Chris]

I haven´t followed TMP recently and certainly did not see a thread on the topic over there, so apologies for any duplicate suggestions.

Getting France into the picture is the most difficult part, I think. This would require them not losing the FIW/Great War for Empire, and this in turn was instrumental in "setting the ground" for the American Revolution - although I would not think that it would totally prevent a rebellion like the ´76, but it would in all probability be set much later, if occuring at all.

In that case, there would still be a strong British presence on North American soil, and I can´t really see how France would have retained Canada - the difference in strength and numbers is rather overwhelming. If France still retains the colonies, though, one would have to wonder if the French revolution occured (without the precedence set by the US and the drain on state finances by the FIW and the aid to the US, although I´m sure the ancien régime could have managed to bankrupt France anyway).

Now, assuming France did not lose Canada (or rather, Nouvelle France), the European powers would probably still be all remaining on the American continent. I think that without the precedent set by the US AND without the successful expansion (both geographically and economically) in the early 19th century, revolutionary movements in Latin America (and Mexico) would have a very, very hard time or not occur at all until much later in the 19c.

If there was no FRENCH revolution, Spain would probably retain the Louisiana area, plus Florida. I´d still think Britain would be the dominant European power in the colonies, and would probably still look out to expand their holdings (although this might be problematic if French influence in the Ohio valley would block the expansion westward, and would lead to conflict).

Another approach would be the following (outlined only for clarity):

1. FIW, ACW, French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars occur as normal until, say, 1805.

2. Due to various reasons (maybe no Francospanish defeat at Trafalgar), the Napoleonic Wars end earlier (unlikely, I know, but possible given different British leadership).

3. The US go to war in 1812 but are defeated more thoroughly than was the historical precedent since GB doesn´t need to fight on two fronts. Possibly, the US might be at odds with France, especially if Napoleon did not sell Louisiana to Jefferson (assuming Napoleon did get control over Louisiana in 1800).

4. In that case, the US rump confederation of states would be sandwiched between two potentially "cold-warring" powerblocs, French Louisiana and British Canada on the Eastern seaboard. This would, however, require France to be able to garrison and control this vast area of land. Unlikely, but possible, and it would limit the "Old West" setting, although tenacious settlers might still encroach on Louisianian territories, with more potential for conflict.

5. Since Spain already lost Louisiana, Mexico might fight for independence as well, or remain a Spanish colony. Maybe one could use a different course of the Carlist Wars in the 1830s to allow for disorder in the Spanish New World colonies.

First thoughts. If I get some more ideas, I´ll be happy to elaborate.

[leadfool]

A simple solution for your idea is the Constitional convention does not result in a Constitution, maybe Madison fails to get George Washington to support the idea, maybe Adams or Madison dies, etc. 

If no constituion, then no UNITED STATES.  Instead what you have is 13 states 'united' under the articles of confederation.  They could each have their own domestic policy and only vaguely united Foreign policy.  With that, the expansion west would continue but be limited.  Spain and France would remain in their original positions, (Louisiana and Florida/Mexico) Britain would be in Canada, the war of 1812 would have been different, etc. 

[Lowtardog]

Have a look at the Maximillin Wars in Mexico, in the 1860s. An early British presence blockading and hevay French involvement with support from Belgians, Hungarians and even Egyptians.

I had looked at this as an alternative for Fire and Fury to fight in the ACW with the French intervention.

Also Fenians in Canada would be a possibility.