NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Charlie_]

They very cleverly took base size off the table, now combat is unit v unit. 20, 25, 30mm it’s all the same now. There was a notorious guy at our local who ran Joms. 5 points of warriors in 4 10 man units with Dane ax. He based on round 20s, could get four models deep into combat. He’s not happy with the new rules 😂

How do you determine how many models in a unit attack with the new rules? Is it the whole unit?

Never played SAGA, I've just watched a rather good series of how-to-play youtube videos though (old edition), so I am starting to understand the rules.

[Too Bo Coo]

He sounds like a fun guy... 
Serves him right.

LOL!  😂 😆 🤣

[Too Bo Coo]

How do you determine how many models in a unit attack with the new rules? Is it the whole unit?

Never played SAGA, I've just watched a rather good series of how-to-play youtube videos though (old edition), so I am starting to understand the rules.

So it used to be, the attacker begins to engage base to base with the closest unit. 2 attackers could touch a defenders base. Then they next models would move to the next closest. They all move 6" (infantry). Those that could not go base to base in 6" would pile in the back. So the idea is that it should be 3 rows deep or about 2" away. But since SAGA has no set base size, people would game the game by using the smallest allowable base size, 20mm and try to get in 4 rows. Since most people use 25 or 30mm bases, it meant that the bases gave an advantage, until the authors did a FAQ and said 3 deep at most. However, unscrupulous players often failed to mention this to unsuspecting opponents, especially in tourneys, and would still try to get an advantage.

Now, you move your first model to engage and the remaining attackers must group within a certain distance and the entire unit fights the other entire unit.

People are complaining, well some people, that this destroys tactics, but they seem to confuse 'gaming the game' with actual tactics.

[Charlie_]

Now, you move your first model to engage and the remaining attackers must group within a certain distance and the entire unit fights the other entire unit.

People are complaining, well some people, that this destroys tactics, but they seem to confuse 'gaming the game' with actual tactics.

Sounds like a sensible change to me!

So a unit of 8 warriors would get 8 attacks, regardless of how many are in base contact?

[Too Bo Coo]

Sounds like a sensible change to me!

So a unit of 8 warriors would get 8 attacks, regardless of how many are in base contact?

Yes, but even in 1e, all units did not have to be in base to base. Once the models that could go base to base were exhausted, the remaining models just need to be within 2" to support.  Now all of that is gone, it's unit v unit.

[fred]

There was a degree of tactics in 1e, if you had spread your guys out in a line, to cover space. Then these were attacked from an end, the attacker was likely to be able to get all his men to fight while some of yours were left hanging.

But to claim that as your guys are on smaller bases you can cram more in, it's pretty bad. But different sized bases can lead to this, we had players with figures on 20mm squares as they came from WAB armies, and we had others on 2ps (26mm rounds) and this could sometimes seem to cause differences.

Removing ambiguities is good. Going too far so that a unit that is strung out in a line can suddenly compress so that all its troops can fight is a bit odd.

[Too Bo Coo]

There was a degree of tactics in 1e, if you had spread your guys out in a line, to cover space. Then these were attacked from an end, the attacker was likely to be able to get all his men to fight while some of yours were left hanging.

But to claim that as your guys are on smaller bases you can cram more in, it's pretty bad. But different sized bases can lead to this, we had players with figures on 20mm squares as they came from WAB armies, and we had others on 2ps (26mm rounds) and this could sometimes seem to cause differences.

Removing ambiguities is good. Going too far so that a unit that is strung out in a line can suddenly compress so that all its troops can fight is a bit odd.

Agreed, but you cant deploy in a line any longer.

[Too Bo Coo]

No it's not.
These are inanimate toys that are unable to move themselves.
In reality, what they are meant to represent , are living breathing human beings who, when they see their mate is being bundled by a group of others, will pile in to help.
They will not stay strung out in a line.
Remember, this is a skirmish game NOT a mass battle game.
That line of 8 warriors represents a line of 8 warriors. Not 250.
If someone is standing in a line and their mate 3 people away is attacked they are not going to stay in position. They are going to move round and join the fight.

And that's what the 'one in all in' rule is meant to represent - two small and amorphous groups mixing in and fighting.

It totally makes sense and is something Lion Rampant got right. It's one of the better changes to the second edition.

In any event iirc, the new rules also don't allow deployment in a long line any longer. 

[fred]

So you have to deploy in a blob now? Oh well will speed things up as movement trays will be useful.

As to whether the troops at the end of the line should be able to pile in or not. Well in the scale of the game, they are more than a move away from the combat. You can argue that the move distances to space covered by the figures is wrong, but these are fixed within the game. If you have choosen to cover ground, then there is a downside to this.  It does depend on the time period a turn is meant to represent, and how organised the troops are. Ultimately its what it is, and hopefully simplifies and speeds up the game. Any changes that remove gamey options are good. There were plenty of bits of Saga that were more complex than they needed to be, so hopefully the new version cleans these up and makes the game flow more smoothly.

[Nick2729]

In any event iirc, the new rules also don't allow deployment in a long line any longer.  

Are you saying the new rules actually ban deploying in a line? Where did you hear this?

So what formations can you now legally adopt under the rules? What happens with a 4 figure Heathguard unit?

I don't recall hearing this in the authors podcasts or in the various written reports but maybe I missed it?

[Too Bo Coo]

Are you saying the new rules actually ban deploying in a line? Where did you hear this?

So what formations can you now legally adopt under the rules? What happens with a 4 figure Heathguard unit?

I don't recall hearing this in the authors podcasts or in the various written reports but maybe I missed it?

I’ll find it and post up, I want to say it was the Saga forum

[Dags]

You can still deploy in a line but these is a maximum distance between the first and last minis in that line. All it does is stop a 12 man levy unit being strung halfway across the table as as screen.

Have the changes to archery been mentioned yet? Iiirc an 8 dice maximum attack (to limit, presumably, the effectiveness of big mounted hearthgard archers)

[Too Bo Coo]

You can still deploy in a line but these is a maximum distance between the first and last minis in that line. All it does is stop a 12 man levy unit being strung halfway across the table as as screen.

Have the changes to archery been mentioned yet? Iiirc an 8 dice maximum attack (to limit, presumably, the effectiveness of big mounted hearthgard archers)

You’re absolutely correct, I meant no t in be long 12 man levy line. I think that’s what the other poster meant, not literally no lines of placement. But you described it better, a line as long as the first and last are within a certain range. But this would really only apply to say one line of four models with little to no space in between. Iirc it is within S, so four inches.

[aircav]

The 2nd Edition is up for pre order on the Beasts site:

https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/NEW_SAGA_2_Rules__Source_books--category--419.html

Main Rule Book £10
Viking age Book £30

[aircav]

And with that £30 price tag I'm out.

To be fair A&A was £30 so not unexpected.