Which fantasy skirmish games work best for 20 to 30 models a side?

[Hobgoblin]

Last night, my wife was out and so, once the kids were in bed, I did what any red-blooded male would do in the circumstances: I rummaged in the leadpile for some broo. I quickly established that I've got a good 20 of the old Citadel range. It occurred to me then that I have the same sort of numbers for a lot of my favourite "skirmishy" models: Aly Morrison half-orcs and hobgoblins (I'm broadly using the slotta-based ones for skirmish and the solid-based ones for massed battles - HotT and Mayhem, chiefly), Perry night goblins and great goblins, etc.

So that got me thinking: what skirmish system is best for 20+ a side? I love Song of Blades, but while it works well with asymmetrical battles in which one side has lots of troops (especially if they come in waves), it's really a 4-12-a-side game. Numbers are a bit higher in OGAM, but while it's a great game, it's not intended for "30 villagers try to fight off 20 broo". And while I love Dragon Rampant, it's definitely unit-based (even if you use reduced-model units) and doesn't really cater to the half-orc who has a two-handed sword and a crossbow while his peers are equipped for close combat.

The one game that does spring to mind as being designed for 20ish a side is Brent Spivey's Havoc. I'll certainly be giving it a go; I think I've only played one full game of it. From what I remember, it's a good game with lots of interesting concepts. Unfortunately, it's not up to the editorial standards of later Bombshell releases like Mayhem and Rogue Planet (another option, potentially, but perhaps not low-tech and gritty enough for half-orc thieves, broo raiders and village militias). Havoc's rulebook is overlong and cluttered, and if ever there were a game crying out for a second edition (reducing the word count by 60%+), it's this one!

None of that actually affects the quality of the game, though. But before I plunge into the ins and outs of Havoc's fixed character classes and 'cut moves', what other games work well at this 20-30-model scale? Which games are actually designed for this sort of number? All suggestions gratefully received!

This is broadly how I see skirmish games at the moment.

Figures per side        Game
1-5                                    Runequest 2 (idea nicked from Lead Asbestos - I've tried it with one dragonewt vs 3 trollkin)
5-12                                  Song of Blades and Heroes (and variations); Battlesworn (undersung and brilliant)
12-20                                ?? (OGAM and Rogue Planet for particularly epic games)
20-30                                ??
30+                                  Dragon Rampant - now we're into units.

[affun]

We've actually been looking for games in a similar range, since our warbands are getting slightly bigger, but not quite big enough for Rampant.

The one I always mention because I think its a bit under-appreciated is the Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game. If you can pick up one of the older rulebooks (particularly Return of the King edition) off of ebay or elsewhere, its well worth it.
I really enjoy the mechanics of the rules and, even though it doesn't explicitly have character generation, its very easy to figure out the points cost formula and customize the game. And besides, it has enough archetypes to make counts-as easy.
The game works well, in my opinion, up to around 30-40 miniatures a side.

I've recently picked up both Donnybrook and Saga, though I haven't got to play either. Both look very enticing though, especially Donnybrook - even if the rulebook is a bit pricey. Just reading through the rules filled me with ideas on how to customize it for medieval/fantasy type games, though we'll see how it goes when it actually gets on the table.
It's resolution mechanic is simple and easy to toy with, it doesn't faff about with too many statistics (in fact having only one: Dice quality) and it's easy to add characters and special units on top of this (If I want a swashbuckler, Ill let them parry. If I want an orc warboss, Ill let it take more hits or throw more attack dice) and so on.

That's the 3 I can remember off the top of my head. I'm sure there's some super brilliant game I've overlooked.

Edit:  Oh yeah, I've been meaning to check out/buy Lords and Servants, as it looks promising. Thought I'd throw that in there.

[Nord]

Muskets and Tomahawks was about that size when I played it, though it is musket era.

[Jagannath]

Smooth and Rifled is pretty good so I imagine Lords and Servants would be too (they're essentially the same ruleset I think), but I'd have said LotR SBG too. It's a great game (despite being fairly IGOUGO) and Affun's right, there's so many options in the army lists that it's easy to find a match without even needing a 'stat your own' system. I use it for human-centric stuff a lot - it's a nice, plain ruleset that does the job with just the right flavour. I really like rulesets that 'seperate' models after combat if one didn't die and let you rearrange and pair off again.

[LeadAsbestos]

I'm also going to vote LOTR. I use the Age of Blood game, a Vikings era set, that is based on the LOTR engine, and it plays very well.

[Idle Doodler]

I'll echo everyone else and endorse the Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game. The Return of the King rulebook is available very inexpensively - it misses a few of the newer special rules added into the Hobbit rulebooks, but perfectly playable and many find it preferable (I find it plays a lot smoother). It also has a good number of profiles for playing around with.

It was originally designed for around the 30-model mark (think Fellowship of the Ring scuffles) so does slow down when people use it to battle full armies against each other (Two Towers sieges), but it's absolutely fine as a skirmish ruleset. There's also a good campaign system available which gives some help on customising heroes.

[nic-e]

Lord of the rings OR, And here I open myself up to the chasm of hatred...

Age of sigmar / Age of sigmar skirmish.

Easy rules, free profiles (and easy enough profiles to make your own).the core ruleset scales very well , you can play it using single figures rather than units.
Or you can use skirmish which allows you to add a little more depth and can handle warbands of up to about 40 figures.

The other advantage is that it's fairly cheap to get the books , existing unit profiles are free to mess around with and if you ever need an opponent it's easier to find someone that already knows it than it.

[Grün]

Take a look at NoQuarter:

https://noquarterwargames.wordpress.com/

[Davies]

I'm  a great fan of Lord of the rings and Dragon Rampant, but for 20-30 miniatures I recently use StrongSword, by Daniel Mersey and Westfalia.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/westfaliaminiatures/strongsword?lang=es

It is still on the printing, but the backers have the Beta pdf, and it is great fun. Take a look:
http://westfaliaminiatures.com/StrongswordPreview

[Hobgoblin]

Thanks, gents - lots of food for thought here, and several games I hadn't heard of. I shall do some investigation.

Nic-e - no hatred here! I had a look through the Age of Sigmar rules yesterday lunchtime and did wonder, though. As far as I can see, it's still basically Warhammer  - still IGOUGO and still with three rolls to conclude a combat. Does it really play that well? Those seem rather antiquated mechanics. From what I get from a skimming of the rules, in a 30 vs 20 game, player A moves all 30 of his models before player B gets to do anything with his. Or is there something I'm missing (more than likely)?

I also had a look at Age of Blood. Interesting: is it as close to the LotR rules as makes no difference (if you don't want the Middle-Earth-by-way-of-Peter-Jackson flavour)?

On Saga/Muskets and Tomahawks: the impression I've always had is that those games are unit-based in the same way as Dragon Rampant. But I may be wrong here; I've read through the Saga rules, but haven't played it. Do these rules allow for (say) 18 chaps with various melee weapons and a couple with crossbows or bows (I'm thinking of my half-orcs here ...).


Jaganath:

I really like rulesets that 'seperate' models after combat if one didn't die and let you rearrange and pair off again.

I agree. I like the way Dragon Rampant resolves combats as "clashes" with one or other unit retreating. I suspect that's much closer to real medieval/ancient fighting (whether in formation or not); most gaming systems make withdrawal from melee far too hard. Beating a tactical retreat should be an easy option.

I've also been having another look at Havoc. I think there's a great game in there, but it's buried deep. Comparing the print rules of Havoc and Rogue Planet shows just how much some judicious pruning and editing can help - at least as far as quick comprehension goes. I'm taking notes as I read through this time, to try to put together a quick-reference sheet.

[Elbows]

I hope to be working on something toward this size in the future...but it's probably a years away.  If and when I do - you guys'll be the first to know! 

[Codsticker]

The one I always mention because I think its a bit under-appreciated is the Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game. If you can pick up one of the older rulebooks (particularly Return of the King edition) off of ebay or elsewhere, its well worth it.
I really enjoy the mechanics of the rules and, even though it doesn't explicitly have character generation, its very easy to figure out the points cost formula and customize the game. And besides, it has enough archetypes to make counts-as easy.
The game works well, in my opinion, up to around 30-40 miniatures a side.

I would second this. Often overlooked.

[chamberlain]

I've been playing Age of Sigmar Skirmish since before it came out (was using the free Hinterlands fan supplment) and it works.  I normally detest IGOUGO but with only 20-30 models on the table, it's not too long of a wait.  That said, it wouldn't really break down with a different activation sequence.  You just need to figure out how to make sure you have the same amount of close combats occur.  Normally everyone fights in everyone's turn, so if you make it alternating activation and have a single close combat phase at the end, you've halved the number of attacks compared to the amount of opportunities to move or shoot.

Card based solution:  1 card for each model with red representing one player and black the other.  Throw two jokers in.  Shuffle cards and flip, with a player activating a model that has not yet gone this turn with each flip.  When a joker is turned up, fight a close combat phase.

Player choice solution:  Whenever it's one player's turn to activate a model after they have done so they can all for a close combat.  If all models have been activated but a player has not called for a close combat round fight one at the end of the turn.

Simple solution:  After all models have done their move and shoot and charge fight two close combat phases.

[swiftnick]

Have you looked at Savage Worlds? The Skirmish set Showdown are available as a free download

[DivisMal]

Very interesting thread!

Apart from SoBH, which I dearly love, I can also recommend LotR, but also AoS Skirmish.

Saga and Muskets and Tomahawks dissappointed me, I have both, since they are unit games and especially Saga requires a lot of models and does not allow much customization.

I recently bought Otherworld Skirmish, but while the book is simply beautiful the rules struck me as pretty old-fashioned and designed for rather small skirmishes.

Savage World on the other hand is brilliant and you can download it for free and buy a lot of greta sourcebooks cheaply. Only drawback: it's a tabletop game turned into a roleplaying game and they skipped the points!