T&T army list for a BoB British force

[Bullshott]

Ok, so now that I've almost finished enough British troops to make up a basic T&T force, can someone help with T&T 'army lists' for these. I want to use my force in two settings: a BoB setting on the edge of the Himalayas (Tibet, Kashgar, etc) and for NREF troops fighting in the RCW. Here are my initial thoughts:

* Most troops are rifle-armed infantry - but what rating?
* One unit may have grenades (must be the highest rated unit in the force)
* Heroes and leaders of other units may carry grenades
* One unit may have a Lewis gun
* Heavy weapon options would be limited to a Vickers MG and mountain artillery (3.7" mountain howitzer (NREF or BoB) or 2.75" mountain gun (BoB only)) transported with mules.
* Scouts would certainly be available - for BoB possibly Gurkhas or Guides cavalry, for NREF these would be British troops (on skis in winter)
* Would a sniper fit in with this force?
* What about vehicle options?

Can anyone help with turning this into a proper army list?

Dave

[Poliorketes]

Rating depends on the year you want to play. If your game is set in the post-war era you'll have lots of veterans or even elite available.

If you're going for Kashgar you'll need transports, a Rolls or Lancaster and lorries should be included. Take care - one AC is more than enough, a second will unbalance the game. The AC can be damaged by rifles or HMG (a lucky shot might even destroy it instantly) but to do so it will attract a lot of fire from your opponent which will help your infantry to survive. And damaging it does not mean the thread is stopped - most of the time you'll end up with an immobilized firing platform which is what the AC is at it's best, it can easily hold your flank on it's own. If he ignores the AC your opponent will suffer!

[Bullshott]

An armoured car will definately appear on a future shopping list  , but as you say - no more than one. However, first I need to finish my mountain artillery.

As for troop quality, I could do with some guidelines as to getting a good balance of unit size & troop quality for the different unit types:

Scouts
Assault unit ('hard men' with grenades)
Riflemen
Support weapons - Lewis & Vickers MG units
Artillery
Armoured car

[Doomhippie]

T&T doesn't really have fixed values per se.
I find it easiest to include a little roleplaying element in building my armies.
So a question I always ask myself is who are those guys?

Example: The force is a mixed group of men put together for a special situation. the hero/leader might be a hardened veteran who has seen his share of fighting. He has led his men successfully to hell and back. He and his men are confident of their abilities. So make them veterans, maybe elites if they took their time kicking some butts in hell...

However, the current crisis calls for more troops than the old bunch. So in come a group of trained soldiers (which I would use as standart value anyway). Relatively new to this theater of war they still know their way around a battlefield.

Maybe a few of the newbies are really on their first outing, hastily thrown together - actually decently trained lads, however due to some logistic problems they are not in the company they were meant to be. While still tough they are a little subdued by the improvised situation. Those might be really green troops (I think raw is the category).

Now, this of course one way of assembling troops and giving them their quality value. As I said a roleplaying approach. Aonother way would be to think more in the way of what they are supposed to achieve. Of course soldiers meant to storm the enemy lines should be tougher and have a better moral rating (veteran or elites). The standart trooper would be trained. Support tend to be more of the average value as they don't really have to go toe to toe with the enemy (let's face it - artillery soldiers are not supposed to see the white in the enemy's eye).
Scouts on the other hand have to be rather self-sufficient, hence I would believe them to be at least veterans.

As to unit sizes I personally like the 10 men units. But the rules leave you a lot of leeway here. So ultimately it's up to your personal taste. Just don't make the troops too small as they will become rather useless quickly once the supression sts in.

[Hammers]

Rating depends on the year you want to play. If your game is set in the post-war era you'll have lots of veterans or even elite available.

If you're going for Kashgar you'll need transports, a Rolls or Lancaster and lorries should be included. Take care - one AC is more than enough, a second will unbalance the game. The AC can be damaged by rifles or HMG (a lucky shot might even destroy it instantly) but to do so it will attract a lot of fire from your opponent which will help your infantry to survive. And damaging it does not mean the thread is stopped - most of the time you'll end up with an immobilized firing platform which is what the AC is at it's best, it can easily hold your flank on it's own. If he ignores the AC your opponent will suffer!

If you want to stay close to historical facts I'd be conservative with the use of Lancaster cars. The Tsar, and therefore by implication both Whites and Reds, certainly had a few but the British had none in India. This is all according to my books. Myself I chose Crossleys,but of course RRs where EVERYwhere.

[Bullshott]

Hammers, you are a genius. I had completely forgotten about the Crossley. I agree that this has to be the choice - especially since this one lives only a few miles from me:



Who did you get your's from?

Dave

[Doc Twilight]

You're right, Hammers. They were literally everywhere. Hell, the Honved (Hungarian Army) had them during the Slovakian War and the invasion of Yugoslavia!

I'd second that recommendation, Bull. Not only are they ubiquitous, but they're good looking vehicles. The only one I can think of off hand is the one coming out from Company B. (Its a Japanese Type 87 "Dowa", but essentially identical part for part copies. Only one of them was actually a Crossley.)

-Doc

[Driscoles]

Hi Dave,

thanks for playing T+T. Polio and Doomhippie are both T+T Veterans but maybe I can explain the idea behind the quality rating for T+T.

Raw Units are units with  no military training at all, units with just some basic training and thrown into battle or units with equipment they are not trained with.

Trained Units are the Regular Soldiers

Veterans are Soldiers with lots of combat experience or very hard drilled troops or troops with esprit de corps and a long tradition.

Elite units are Either special trained with lots of combat experience, political or religious fanatics.

With that guideline it should be easy for you to build your force. Please post a group shot when you are finnished 

Cheers
Björn

[Grimm]

Hi Bullshott

I agree with Driscoles but you should also think about the gameplay ,that is what I do when I make a TaT force.
I find it boring when you and your opponent have forces with allways the same    initiative.
(example both have only traind troops or one has traind and the other have row units
so you know allways  wich one is gonig first .... .)

I would make a mix of quality in the Army but you must also keep the background of the army in mind (example a Chinese militia with elite units sounds wrong for me but a Traind unit can be there or the vetran bodyguards of the Leader) .

Last thing is the size of the force .
We like to play with 5 till 7 cards ( maby 3 units ,1 support ,1 hero).

What would I do with your Forces ?
You wish to play British army so traind troops will be common ,I think.

example
2 traind rifle-armed infantry units ( one with a Lewis gun)
1 vertran rifle-armed infantry with grenades unit (with Leader)
1 Traind Heavy weapon (HMG or mountain artillery) or AC
1 Hero

to edit some flavour I would make a
1 Elite sniper
or
1 Elite units of scouts
or
1 unit of Rew supporting Tribesmen


Cheers Grimm

[NurgleHH]

Hey Grimm,
is it really balanced?

[Westfalia Chris]

Well, I think that Grimm´s concept sounds rather reasonable. Mainly trained units, since it should represent a "professional" force, only two machine guns... sounds okay! I´d guess the British (in a "pulpy" environment) would consider a sniper to be plain unsporting, though, so I´d rather go for the scouts or tribesmen option.

"Balance" in a force itself, to my mind, should be achieved by "balancing" the main units against each other, i.e. do not use more veteran or elite units than you have trained ones, and this seems to be the case. Maybe downgrade the scouts to veteran too.

You should always remember that we never conceived T&T as a "hard historical simulation", but rather as a ruleset to represent the "pulpy" and "adventurous" flair. So you could concentrate on making the Brits good quality, "stiff upper lip", facing huge odds - the movie "North West Frontier" being a prime example. Of course, if you use many high-quality units for the Brits, you should consider giving the opponents some extra figures or unit(s), since high-quality troops are rather dangerous with modern weaponry (and poor-quality troops are very vulnerable to it, morale-wise).

[Doomhippie]

What I like best about T&T is the playing approach. Of course it's not a historic simulation. You'd need a computer to calculate all the eventualities for a realistic approach and even that wouldn't get everything fixed.

Ask yourself: what do I want to play here? A movie scene? Or do I try to simulate reality? From that point of view (also called common sense) lots of (reasonable)ideas will develop. And that's the real strength of this game.

[NurgleHH]

Ok, without the "unbalanced" joke: I like the T&T-System, because you can make games in a fast way. It is simle to manage and complex on the Table&result. And you don't need 100+ Minis....

[Bullshott]

Thanks guys for all the suggestions.

Hammers - A Crossley A/C is a must, so I can see an order for one of Company B's nice models soon. Also the Matchbox once produced WW1 Crossley trucks in their 'Models of Yesteryear' range - I must look out for one of these.

Grimm - By strange coincidence, earlier this evening I was looking at what figures I had and came up with an almost identical organisation. I think I will work along the lines that at least 1/2 of my force must be trained troops. In practice I think the only veterans will be probably be one unit with rifles and grenades and a unit of scouts (although I like the idea of some native scouts - perhaps some Mongols for Kashgar).

Driscoles - the first shots are on the BoB board, in the thread "Englishmen with snow on their boots". I have just completed another 9 infantry and have started customising my veterans before painting them. This weekend I also hope to start work on converting a LLedo Model T to go with this force.

[Hammers]

Hammers, you are a genius. I had completely forgotten about the Crossley. I agree that this has to be the choice - especially since this one lives only a few miles from me:

Lovely picture! What museum is that? Do my eyes deceive me or is the car display NWF themed? And does anyone know if light grey was the colour of choice for this AC?

I bought two from Chieftain, but they, nor BEF Miniatures, do not seem to carry them any longer. Does anyone know who's acquired the molds?