Advice sought on scale, rules, lead resin or 3D printed etc?

[Paratrooper 42]

Hi,

Been out of the gaming scene for a while but looking to get back into it - my main interest is WW2 but as I sold my original 1/72nd plastics some time ago I though I'd ask the assembled masses for some advice on how to best to about returning.

I want to play smaller engagements, no sword beach landings for me, that are in the 'large skirmish' category.   Operation Torch is of interest due to family connections a few generations back and I like airborne landings / raids / hit and run type games.

So, what scale would you recommend 15mm / 20mm or 28mm and is there a preferred manufacturer out there?

Rules wise, I've been looking at AARs for Bolt Action, Chain of Command and Pulp Ally, all of which have a following so I'd be interested in opinions there.

Lastly, when it comes to vehicles, do people prefer plastic, resin or white metal generally?  I've seen a few threads on 3D printed tanks and I have access to a printer so would this be a viable alternative?

Sorry for all the questions, I realise I could probably work it out for myself but that would take ages, and with so many experts here seems better to tap into your collective wisdom than trust my luck to google.

I've got a great opportunity to start afresh so I just want to get it right

Thanks,

Bill.

[Ballardian]

 Welcome back to the hobby Paratrooper42
  Firstly, when you say 'large skirmish', how many models did you envisage putting on the table? At 28mm/1/56 the games you mention generally use platoon scale engagements with 30-50 infantry minis but only generally a couple of vehicles. This number can increase as the scale shrinks with company size battles being easy to put on the table.
 Smaller scales, (1/72 or 15mm/1/100) have some advantages - they're generally a little (or sometimes a lot) cheaper, plus they tend to be easier to store being well, smaller & all. 28mm-1/56 on the other hand does allow for more characterful sculpts (I'm obviously generalising here, there are plenty of excellent models in the smaller scales).
 As to vehicles - now you can find most of the familiar subjects in plastic (WG & Rubicon in 1/56, PSC, Zvezda, Battlefront in 15mm & loads in 20mm-1/72, both scale models & 'wargaming' models - which tend to be simplified). Plastic has some advantages - its generally easier to deal with, but plenty of interesting & unusual vehicles exist only in resin/pewter - so it depends what you're after.
 So I'd say you should probably make your choice based on the folowing criteria:

 Size of force - the bigger the force envisioned, the smaller the scale
 Cost & storage
 What force you wish to represent - will it demand a lot of rare or unusual units? (this will dictate scale & medium to a degree)
 Ruleset - the ones you mentioned are fine, possibly you should also consider the Battlegroup books (designed for 20mm-1/72 but perfectly usable at other scales). importantly, what does your local gaming group favour - it can be disheartening if you invest heavily in one scale or system only to find that nobody locally plays it.

 Smaller games are also worth considering, Torriani Games 'Operation Squad Evolution' is a favorite of mine, using 10-12 minis a side (with perhaps a light vehicle) - Pulp Alley is also a great little game, but focusses on 5/6 minis a side, though it's not WWII themed as such.

[robh]

I would steer clear of 28mm unless you want to play small skirmish semi rpg with infantry only (or have a massive table)

20mm still has the widest range of models and equipment and is a great compromise between individual detail and usability on the table.
But I think 15mm is probably the best option now for "big skirmish" gaming. Ranges of models are quickly catching those available in 20mm (pretty much all the standard stuff is already covered) and the level of detail is excellent. 10mm figures are another option, great miniatures and surprising detail on the vehicle models but imho better for multi figure squad sized bases.

Assuming you want individually based figures I would look to the smallest figures you would consider painting and basing. With WW2 and later gaming the feel of the game is vastly improved by making the engagement ranges as long as possible looking when compared to the height of the figure.

As for rules the Battlegroup xxx series are excellent, if somewhat expensive if you have interests outside a single theatre/era of the war. The "Chain of Command" set also give a good game and have some really interesting mechanics that make you think about your tactics.

[madman]

I am back into gaming after a many decades long absence and this has always been an area of interest. However, if I may divert here is my take on how to proceed (not which rules are best).

Do you have some fellow gamers nearby? What are they already playing, or would they REALLY be willing to move into something else? Frankly this has been my biggest bug, finding locals who share similar interests. Most people I have found who game are rarely into minis. Those who are seem to meet in the evenings during the week. This is a dead end for me. So step one is size up the (gaming) terrain.

Get thee forth to a local con, or maybe a slightly distant club, where at least one of the rules you are interested in are being played. That is what I am hoping to do this weekend, get out to Council Fires in Brantford Ontario Canada and hopefully try out chain of command.

If you post your current location you might raise a reply from a like minded gamer in your area.

Stephen

[Truscott Trotter]

CoC, 28mm resin/metal

You will not regret it

[Kommando_J]

I think 28mm is the way to go, its probably to mot popular and id say go for bolt action, the great thing is you can easliy find a group in most places and after building things up you can move your group over to CoC without much hassle.

Also pulp and ww2 minis can be used in one another games.

Metal and plastic for troops, resin/plastic/3d printed for terrain.

[Paratrooper 42]

Thanks for all the helpful comments and ideas.

So far as opponents go, due to the unpredictable nature of my work commitments I'm likely to be playing solo games or with an old friend of mine who's also decided to get back into the hobby.  He's pretty laid back about the whole scale/rules thing and has said he's happy to go with my choice, which is handy.

based on robh's comments about ranges etc. I've decided to go with 15mm as my gaming space is going to be limited and there's also the cost element.

Rules will be CoC as most of the replies supported them, I've also seen other reviews and comments and I get the impression they're a solid and well supported set.

Lastly I think I'll be going with Plastic vehicles in the main, with metal as a backup when there are no suitable plastics.  I'm going to give the 3D printed ones a miss as I don't think the quality of finish is very good currently.

[Ballardian]

 If you're going with 15mm, plastic vehicles aren't too hard to come by for the ususal suspects, with Battlefront, The Plastic Soldier Company & Zvezda having decent ranges - you mentioned Operation Torch, so I assume you might be looking at mid-war US & Germans & those companies have you covered there. However if you want to represent the Vichy French I think you're stuck with Battlefront (though I think they & Peter Pig both produce resin French vehicles).
 Infantry are easy, all the above produce good infantry models (BF & PSC in plastic, Peter Pig & Skytrex in pewter), good luck with the project!

[Etranger]

If you're going with 15mm, plastic vehicles aren't too hard to come by for the ususal suspects, with Battlefront, The Plastic Soldier Company & Zvezda having decent ranges - you mentioned Operation Torch, so I assume you might be looking at mid-war US & Germans & those companies have you covered there. However if you want to represent the Vichy French I think you're stuck with Battlefront (though I think they & Peter Pig both produce resin French vehicles).
 Infantry are easy, all the above produce good infantry models (BF & PSC in plastic, Peter Pig & Skytrex in pewter), good luck with the project!

That's a partial list & misses out several important manufacturers, if you include metal or resin producers. QRF have an extensive WWII French range & Skytrex also carry a reasonable selection. (Skytrex are the same models as carried by Old Glory in the USA but are generally regarded as being better mouldings than their OG equivalents). Forged in Battle have a smaller selection of French. All these companies have other countries in their ranges.

Eureka have some lovely WWII figures, including Italians, who were after all the largest army in North Africa. Then you can use combat tricycles...

CoC in 15mm has the great advantage that the figure scale & the ground scale are the same, which is nice from an aesthetic viewpoint.

AFAIK the few 3D printed tanks that are available are through Shapeways rather than downloads for home printing. Look a t some of Fitz' posts here on LAF to get an idea of what can be achieved & what is available.

[shepard88]

I like 1/72 (20 mm) scale which is well supported within WWII range (figures and vehicles), only drawback is that many vehicles kits available on the market are designed for model makers and hence are rather fragile and consists
 of lot of parts.

[madman]

Played my first game of CoC last night so I now have a (slightly) valid opinion.

Lots of fun. I thought I hated the mechanics of buckets of dice but it played well and moved along. Four of us were playing. My partner and I were rank newbies against a couple of old hands. One of whom intimated LOTS of play. Based on their knowledge of the rules I would say his statement was accurate and he knew the rules better than the referee. Bad signs for our side....

The one aspect of the rules I was very keen to see in play was the way you develop the staring positions. I think it was called the drop off points. Basically a group of deployment points. Forces don't start on the board you must bring them on using initiative rolls through the game. Not all at once but over time. Hedging you forces for the future was a big part of our opponents strategy and we felt obliged (follow by example) to do similar up to the point we were able to exploit the flow of the battle.

The combat mechanics were OK. Personally I like a little more fineness in the dice effect. Every attack was made with a D6 and typically had a 3 in 6 chance. If you hit you had to overcome the skill of your opponent to register damage. This meant another D6 roll against their troop quality and level of cover (light heavy or none). Now I have not played a lot of mini games recently as like you I have returned from an absence (in my case 25 years) but a couple used this mechanic. I hated one and loved the other. Totally a personal feel thing for the period involved not a good or bad idea. Here it felt good. Again pardon my limited experience but that is where you are coming from as well. Troops dropped at the rate I would expect. The effects of morale on a unit were very minimal. I didn't get the mechanic but you were able (and encouraged) to keep the unit's morale up by having your leaders close by and spending a good amount of their limited actions "rallying" the detrimental effects off the units. The mechanic was called something like shock(?). Since all of us kept it from building up I never really found out how it affected the game.

I am used to games where your units are suppressed or coerced into inaction by morale results (or just plain run away). In this game your (seemingly plentiful) leaders spent a seemingly good portion of their precious actions keeping the upper lips stiff. This meant the EFFECT was similar as the troops could do less or had to wait until the leader was free to get them going again. I liked the effect even if I had trouble getting my head around the concept originally.

In the end us newbies won the day. We got a few good runs where we were able to keep pushing forward while our opponents waited for a turn. You roll 5D6 each turn for command points. Lower numbers on individual dice allows you to use a unit (fireteam or squad). Mid level results allow your leaders to function. They can lead units under their command and nearby, reduce the effect of morale loss, or some special functions like increase the firepower of crew served weapons (skilled hands to guide the young 'uns). High result rolls gave you the ability to keep having the initiative for the next turn or build points towards long term effects. This is the command dice mechanic. I think I would have to play a few games to see the effects of this game mechanic. The ability to keep being the active player is self explanatory. In our game it allowed us to perform enough actions in the game in a row we could actually follow on with our strategy. If we hadn't had that run it would have meant an inching forward kind of combat. Since you know if you get the next go you have the option and knowledge to make the bolder moves. The only recourse your opponents would have is if they placed their forces on overwatch (allowing a reaction fire phase). In our game we were the only side to make use of our command dice points. We used them to end a game turn. For us this allowed us to claim a significant victory condition (we had occupied one of our opponent's deployment points). This reduced their overall morale (hard to say what that effect was for us) but we saw it as a way to keep their forces pinned into a progressively poorer position to deploy their remaining not committed forces. Yes we played probably 20 rounds (back and forth between sides action and reaction) before we had a game turn end. The down side for us was our concealing smoke was removed at that point. A lot of other game significant events are triggered by the game turn end but didn't apply to our game.

The game was close until near the end. The multi round control had a significant effect but earlier in the game. For us getting one of our opponent's deployment points eliminated was a development of our initial strategy during the pre game phase where you position your deployment points. We purposely tried to limit our opponent's potential control of the board by deploying markers such that their share of the board was reduced. Since we were working a meeting engagement into a town which covered 80% of the table limiting their deployment options looked a good start. They didn't see it at first and it ended up making a difference. So as we post game discussed you cannot underestimate the criticality of that phase of the game.

I hope this helps. It was my first and only time with the rules and was played at a convention so all of us but our two opponents were new to each other. For myself I would like to play it once or twice again but it looks to be a system I will be going for. The days of buying everything and hoping to 1) find and opponent(s) and 2) filling shelves with unused stuff is over. If I am buying it I want to be playing it, and probably only it.

There are a set of intro videos on youtube done by, I assume, one of the authors. I found them a really good way to determine if I was interested in the game. The initial deployment mechanics stood out to me as a great idea at the time. I didn't get enough of the other game mechanics from those videos to make a difference as to opinion but having watched them I was comfortable with most f the play of the game. Hope this helps.

Stephen