Living in Interesting Times

[nic-e]

It wasn't scurv was it? 

EDIT: Holy crap I was kidding.

[Westfalia Chris]

To all:

Please let's not make this whole thing even more unpleasant than it already is by mocking the person in question.

[nicknorthstar]

Hands up, I don't know anything about what happened on the Frostgrave boards, which is embarrassing as it's a product I'm involved with. But actually that's why I don't go there, I'm biased so I'd rather the conversations didn't involve me. I'll ask about to find out what happened, I don't think it needs to be discussed here.

Had a quick look at the Frostgrave board. Just a sorry co-incidence that should arise at the same time as I took over.

[mcfonz]

You are probably right Nick. 

Just to be clear, I wasn't meaning to suggest there are any conspiracies, just that I can understand, and I suspect others can too, why some may have seen those events and had questions about them being linked.

Also, for the record, I play Frostgrave and have no issues with the game. I suspect it will get another round of playing this year when I try to re-introduce gaming to my sister and her boyfriend because it is a brilliant game for that. I am contemplating how to write games for it that don't involve treasure though, so I shall stick a post up about that at some point.

Last thing, and it's advice more than anything else. It's probably best that as a mod, you don't preach be nice to one another and lets just focus on cool miniatures etc - but then accuse a user of shit-stirring. Especially when one of the reasons given for the approach to moderation is to help prevent folk from regretting what they have posted much after the event.

No one's perfect. And if my 11+ years working at a kids home is anything to go buy, change throws up all kinds of issues.

Nick is probably mainly well known around the UK, and perhaps not so well known further afield. And the move from the Prof to Nick has been relatively swift. That will unnerve some people just because it is change, uncertainty and unknown.

I suspect that even if the transition over is minimal and few, if any, changes will be seen (banners aside) then this is just a little bit of dust flung up that will settle down in due course on it's own. Some folk will just need a little reassurance is all, and for that respect is far great than insult.

[TWD]

The guy who got banned literally had a skinhead as his avatar and (until recently) the motto "strength through Oi" and yet it's "right-wing" folk who had him removed?
*bangs irony-o-tron* is this thing on?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_Thru_Oi!

Unrelated: Anyone know who manufactures 2mm scale violins?

[Plynkes]

There's nothing wrong with being a skinhead. I happen to have HEREFORD UTD SKINHEAD tattooed on the back of my neck, and while my politics are nobody on LAF's business, they are not the politics of the far-right.

I'm not sure this is the place for this, but people who automatically equate skinheads with far-right politics are simply ill-informed, I'm afraid. The original music of choice of skinheads was an upbeat, fast-paced precursor to Reggae, brought to the UK by Jamaican immigrants and adopted by skinheads with gusto. Strength Thru Oi is actually a very good compilation album, and isn't particularly political (at least not in any far-right way). It has The Toy Dolls on it, for God's sake. What a vanguard for fascism they were!


The former member in question may have been many things, but he was no Nazi.

[Gibby]

The mods are doing a great job. It's unfortunate when people have to be banned but I don't think any regulars would argue with the fact that the person in question had taken a consistently negative/aggressive attitude for a very long time. I've been on forums where people get banned for being a bit annoying whilst the admin has a hangover, so the fact that an entire thread has to be (pointlessly and a bit tin foil-hattedly) made to discuss the shocking event shows how rare it is here. I laugh at the idea that anyone among the team is right wing or commercially motivated. Hat off to Nick - you wouldn't even know that the forum is owned by North Star, he has preserved the LAF exactly as we knew and loved it before the handover, and clearly intends to keep it that way.

[Kommando_J]

I think my position has been already put into better words by mcfonz on page two, fear of it being a sign of things to come as i've grown quite attached to LAF and think that for the past few years that moderation has been consistently good.

That said, i think/hope that this is just a temporary glitch.

Also not sure where this whole ''right-wing'' nonsense is coming from, i've never seen any kind of political bent on here and while censorship is bad it's not the preserve of one side, using the logic displayed so far could equally argue that this is some lefty conspiracy

[Paleskin]

been out for popcorn,what did i miss?

[FramFramson]

There's nothing wrong with being a skinhead. I happen to have HEREFORD UTD SKINHEAD tattooed on the back of my neck, and while my politics are nobody on LAF's business, they are not the politics of the far-right.

I'm not sure this is the place for this, but people who automatically equate skinheads with far-right politics are simply ill-informed, I'm afraid. The original music of choice of skinheads was an upbeat, fast-paced precursor to Reggae, brought to the UK by Jamaican immigrants and adopted by skinheads with gusto. Strength Thru Oi is actually a very good compilation album, and isn't particularly political (at least not in any far-right way). It has The Toy Dolls on it, for God's sake. What a vanguard for fascism they were!


The former member in question may have been many things, but he was no Nazi.

I have a longer reply in the works (me? long winded? I never...) but I just have to chime in to agree with Plynkes 100%.

A very brief history lesson (apologies for any errors or if my dates are off, BTW):

The Skinhead movement originated in the early 70's as purely a working class movement in the UK and commonwealth, not much different than any other trend in the past, be it greasers, Teddy Boys, or so on. They were scrappers and street fighters at times, but they were not racists much less Nazis and one of their main bonds was a love of Jamaican Rocksteady and early Reggae music (there are even songs about the then-skinheads by these Jamaican artists).

By the mid-late 70's the movement was splitting between skins as they began and far-right skinheads and by the late 70's it was a full-on rivalry.

Two things then happened. 1) The idea of the "Skinhead Nazi" became iconic due to clashes just prior to and during the Thatcher election, and Skinheads began to be conflated with Nazis by anyone who didn't know about the subculture before that (i.e. the rest of the world). 2) Most of the non-Nazi skinheads transitioned to the Punk movement (which still preserved some of the military chic that originated with Skinheads, especially the boots), either becoming punks or joining the dreary regular working world as they were now working adults.

So by the early 80's Skinheads were cemented in the popular imagination as Nazis. But for people like Scurv, who was one of those early skins it means nothing more than being tough and liking reggae. He is vehemently anti-nazi and his posting has always confirmed that, as I'm sure many of you know he has strong feelings about colonial wargaming.

[FramFramson]

Alright, I was the one who started That Other Thread, so I suppose I ought to weigh in.

Regarding the person concerned:

There's a lot of piling on and "good riddance" in this thread right now against a fellow who is not here to defend himself (and who I doubt would be bothered to do so if he could), which I find rather petty (I notice this comment has already been made while I was typing this). Everyone ought to consider that as with any internet community or organization, complaints will arise from a vocal minority and that a very one-sided view has and is being presented.

Those of us who quite enjoyed Scurv's company and posts on LAF (and there are a fair few of us - I had quite a laugh yesterday when I noticed one such member had changed their custom title to "FREE SCURV!") had no reason to send the moderation team fan mail in some odd effort to balance out the complaints. Of course he could be blunt, didn't suffer fools gladly, and wasn't much for niceties - which rubbed many the wrong way - but in reading the body of his posts, you will find the vast majority are positive, helpful, or simply inconsequential and everyone who knows him well knows what an honest and stand-up fellow he is. What you see is what you get and that counts for something with me anyway. If his posting is your idea of a poisonous, hateful human you must be fortunate enough to live a very sheltered life (or, as Plynkes made me realize, perhaps you mistakenly assumed he was a Nazi and let that colour your opinion).

Regarding the ban itself:

Several months ago, Scurv was put "on notice" that further transgressions of the rules would be punishable by banning. Fair go. Regardless of what led up to that point, that was how it stood until two days ago when he was banned without notification or warning.

We both spent some time looking at his last couple weeks of posts, and could find nothing which violated forum rules, nor has anyone else who've we'd explained this to. Which is to say, there was no visible proximate cause for the ban itself - it simply came out of the blue. As there is no banlog or similar public accounting for major moderator decisions and any discussion was swiftly shut down, we had to go on guesswork. As this DID coincide with new management, the obvious suspicion was that some people took the transition as an opportunity to "clean house" of an undesirable, without there actually being any immediate justification. No one ever did receive an answer to this question and we still have no idea what was the immediate cause for the ban.

Regarding the forum rules:

As of this posting, this rule has stood for years:

Rule 2.2 Criticism.

The LAF administrator and moderators have no problem with receiving constructive criticism, and most users will also be happy to receive productive replies and incentives. Keep in mind, however, that only posting criticism and not producing/showing your own work will leave people with a poor impression or your character. Do NOT try to become the “Critic Laureate” of LAF – it’s “live and let live.” All criticism is well-received if it is constructive, politely worded and appropriately balanced with praise. Don’t be nit-picky and try being positive.

I have emphasized the very first line here as I do not think this rule is being followed as things currently stand. Not that I expect the mods to endure outright hostility or personal attacks, but fair criticism should be open for discussion. I am, to put it mildly, amazed (and impressed) that this thread has not been locked or deleted yet as has been increasingly the case of late and thank you for that.

Regarding the staff

I strongly feel the mods are members just like any one of us - fellow members rather than any sort of petty authority - yet there's been a disturbing trend towards a more adversarial relationship between staff and members. A banning without any seeming immediate justification outside of "he had it coming" from those who disliked him seemed to signal a new and critical stage of escalation, whether or not this was correct (and we had no way of knowing). A great many members asked me if I thought I would be banned next, such was the uncertainty over what the mods behaviour. Frankly, I couldn't answer that question with any certainty myself.

Without going too far into personal messages, one of our mods has insisted to me that nothing has changed. Yet many of the membership do not feel this way. Unfortunately we have no way of knowing how many feel this way or how deeply because any such discussion is immediately shut down, often with a comment assuming "This will go nowhere as usual" or by simply deleting the post or thread.

The same mod also said they felt "picked on", which to me is yet another sign of an adversarial "siege mentality" between staff and regular members (and I said as much). Without discussion, these emotions will only fester.

This us-versus-them attitude is something which can easily happen in any group where some members have been elevated to leadership positions. We don't even need to use examples as extreme as the Milgram Experiments or the current state of American policing an an analogy, as I would imagine most of us have experienced this at work or school or somewhere else, or, even closer to home, this is exactly what happened to TMP. So there's a very obvious and real example looming over LAF especially as we have many refugees from TMP now.

These refugees as well as other longtime LAF members do not assume "it can't happen here". Hell, "It can happen here" seems to be the zeitgeist of the age, so you'll excuse us if this sounds a bit paranoid to those who disagree.

[nicknorthstar]

Hereford Utd Skins?   

'The kids they come from everywhere, the east end's all around'

[Plynkes]

And we're runnin' down the back streets!
Oi! Oi! Oi!
Doctor Martens on our feet!



This day has really taken a turn I never expected.   

[voltan]

We both spent some time looking at his last couple weeks of posts, and could find nothing which violated forum rules, nor has anyone else who've we'd explained this to.

It could be that the posts that tipped the balance had been removed just after posting.

[FramFramson]

And we're runnin' down the back streets!
Oi! Oi! Oi!
Doctor Martens on our feet!



This day has really taken a turn I never expected.   

All this talk made my wife quite nostalgic for her punk days, which was a blessed relief after the early-80's back-to-the-50's trend where she lived, since she has about the most 50's-unfriendly hair imaginable. 

I do remember the days of girls in docs, tight jeans, and combat jackets well...