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Author Topic: 3D printed model quality  (Read 3830 times)

Offline Flinty

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3D printed model quality
« on: April 30, 2018, 04:51:50 PM »
I was perusing Maketashi's expolits into 3D printing https://www.matakishi.net/3d-printing.html and was wondering what the membership's views on the current state of the commercially avialble products are?

I'm approaching the age where I'm starting to drift out of touch with technology that isnt central to my livelihood; I  understand that home printing is now viable, especially if the surface texture is part of the design - stone, wood, etc seem to work well.

Presumably the commercial sellers are running more advanced printers, but I see Shapeways and the like still have 'issues'with final surface finishes. Is this simply related to the material and resolution - i.e. the more you pay, the better the quality? After all CAD masters print without surface texture, but I assume these are seriously expensive.

I presume that one day it will be possible to print sellable items with a flat surface texture, but will that happen before I'm senile and forget what I wanted a FV432 for?

This is driven by my possible interest in Butlers Printed Models - I'm after 20mm, but the photos are all for 15mm and quite a have typical printing striations, which can be an issue (for the finickerty, like me) on AFV's with lost of flat planes. Some reviews suggest that this has been addressed using a higher resolution - anyone have any experience of BPM's 20mm offerings?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 04:55:11 PM by Flinty »

Offline zemjw

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Re: 3D printed model quality
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2018, 09:22:51 AM »
As a 3d model is printed in layers, slopes are always a problem. Higher resolution means the layers are closer together, but the issue is still there. Higher resolution also generally means more expensive :(

The solution is to split up your model and print as much of it vertically as possible. However, you then end up with a model kit that you have to assemble, so it's a tradeoff.

I notice on the Butler's site (which I hadn't seen before, interesting idea) that the models are largely one piece. Higher resolution would help, but would probably not eliminate the problem. There are people who smooth out 3d models afterwards with things like acetone, but that depends on the material - Rigid ink link

Painted and camouflaged should hide a lot of the issues. That and a liberal helping of the "three feet rule" may be enough to overcome the  need for the models to "look right" (something I and a lot of other modellers suffer from, I have no doubt ;D) I am finding with my own advancing years that I'm starting to accept "good enough", even "looks okay" on occasion, if it gets me the figure I want.

Offline boneio

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Re: 3D printed model quality
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2018, 11:53:04 AM »
I've got some scenery bits from Iron Gate Scenery. You can definitely see the printed layers so the texture is a little off. However I haven't yet got around to painting the items (other than priming a few) and as the poster above suggests, I think from eye level during a game they'll look good. Probably not so good for close-up photography, but we'll see what can be done with paint.

Offline Flinty

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Re: 3D printed model quality
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2018, 12:01:43 PM »
Quote
The idea of it is better than the reality.
True - the original hype suggested we could all have a Star Trek replicator at home....

Quote
Painted and camouflaged should hide a lot of the issues. That and a liberal helping of the "three feet rule" may be enough
There is that - but for me, the look of the thing is a big chunk of it - I was wonderig if I could overcome my own bias if I mixed them with resin and plastic kits on the same table - would I even notice?

Please note I'm not disparaging BPM in any way; it may well be that my 20mm test purchase sees me swap wholesale to thier product.

Im interested in how a new manufacturing process is being adapted to our particular requirements. 3D printing produces a lot of parts for the automotive / engineering sectors that meet pretty strict quality criteria. I get the impression that some of the larger wargame manufacturers use third parties to print thier render into a master for casting - so high quality printing is possible/does exist.

Once the intial skill set is mastered*, then pretty much anything can be run off - meaning we are starting to see those previously commercially unviable bits of kit appearing, like some short production run varient of an obscure Hungarian military truck from one factory in late 1943.

All well and good, but the available wargame product quality does not seem to offer anything matching the current cutting edge production possibility.

Is high quality prohibitively expensive, or is it defined by the production a a high quality render in the first place, or both?

So why - maybe I just havent checked enough - am I not seeing business models like Shapeways trumpeting higher quality for higher prices, something closer to the 'perfect' print? - although I can see that probably isn't a brilliant sales pitch....

*I do realise the investment in time, money, software and hardware and user skills is hugely significant. A small wargame firm/individual sinking 2-3 years+ of mortgage payments into equipment that is likely to be superceeded in a short time frame, with a steep learning curve - and then to recoup all that by selling in a niche within a niche market with variable returns - is not going to be a runner, unless they have Bill Gates' small change to fritter away.


 
 



« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 12:04:50 PM by Flinty »

Offline zemjw

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Re: 3D printed model quality
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2018, 01:27:48 PM »
Is high quality prohibitively expensive, or is it defined by the production a a high quality render in the first place, or both?

So why - maybe I just havent checked enough - am I not seeing business models like Shapeways trumpeting higher quality for higher prices, something closer to the 'perfect' print? - although I can see that probably isn't a brilliant sales pitch....

I made a model of a 28mm scale truck earlier this year and uploaded it to Shapeways.

in PLA at 200 micron layers the body is £13.86
in WSF at 150 micron layers the body is £25.69
in frosted ultra detail at 29 micron layers the body is £55.74
in frosted extreme detail at 16 micron layers the body is £88.93

The price does go up considerably the higher the quality of the print, although there are other factors that affect the cost as well.

If a company is printing and selling its own stuff then the investment in machinery will indeed be large. If they use a commercial printer to print their models then they're either going to have to work with fairly small margins and hope to sell loads or have a unique product that everyone wants and is willing to pay for.

It is possible to sell things through your own shop on Shapeways and there's at least one thread on the forums from a member who made interwar tanks and did just that.

For a business it's probably still more cost effective to get a high quality master printed and smoothed, then use that to make moulds and cast the vehicle in resin. However, resin casting brings its own set of problems with it.

The future is getting there, it's just taking its time about it :D

Offline Argonor

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Re: 3D printed model quality
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2018, 04:05:52 AM »
How about the printers that work with a 'tank' of liquid resin, hardening the resin with lasers (or the likes) - do they provide smoother surfaces than the pla-layer printers?
Ask at the LAF, and answer shall thy be given!


Cultist #84

Offline meninobesta

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Re: 3D printed model quality
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2018, 11:11:24 AM »
3D printers which work with resin (I think there are 2 major proccesses of resin printing available) are starting to be available in the 500€ price range
the process seems to be a bit more complex and more expensive than the existing 3D printing ones, but the output quality seems to be better

An example video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YrUQOYLoK0
Cheers,
Pedro

Offline boneio

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Re: 3D printed model quality
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2018, 12:39:24 PM »
An example video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YrUQOYLoK0
Well that's quite impressive and looks fairly simple. First time I've been impressed with 3D prints.

Offline arloid

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Re: 3D printed model quality
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2018, 01:45:19 PM »
There are 2 types of resin printers, DLP and SLA, both use UV curing resin. In both cases the build plate is lowered upside-down inside a resin tank with a window for the UV light to pass though.

In case of DLP a projector is used to form the object, SLA a laser.
DLP is considered lower quality because you can still see the ´pixels´ of the projector inside the finished object. SLA is a lot smoother. DLP is faster when printing a lot of things at the same time, but has longer curing time for the same resin. However there are also more sensitive resins on the market to speed this proces up.

Generally speaking DLP printers cost about $500 and SLA around the $1000.

A big consideration is wether or not you want one in your house, both the printing as the curing process are chemical processes and will require ventilation.

Offline Rich H

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Re: 3D printed model quality
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2019, 09:20:19 PM »
£350 Anycubic Photon SLA resin print at 0.05mm layers 1/56 scale


Undercoat hides all the residual lines

Offline moiterei_1984

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Re: 3D printed model quality
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2019, 12:23:24 PM »
Printed this on a Anycubic Photon as well:



1/56 scale just like Rich's tank. Even an SLA printer has its limitations especially where fragile parts like gun barrels are concerned, but overall I'd say they can be on par with commercially available resin cast vehicles. In the end it's more or less a question of how much you're willing to invest in your printer as well as into the necessary files.

Offline Fire-at-Will

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Re: 3D printed model quality
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2019, 01:02:12 PM »
I bought some 20mm Bren and Scout Carriers from BPM

The printing lines are most distinct across the hull, especially on the front plate and mudguards.  I tried to moderate my usual drybrushing to just along the grain so it didn't show up so much.  They were good value for something that was unavailable at sensible prices.   The lines do not clean up easily and go furry if filed. I did wonder if  painting with liquid greenstuff might have helped.

Offline Rich H

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Re: 3D printed model quality
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2019, 11:05:07 PM »
Printed this on a Anycubic Photon as well:



1/56 scale just like Rich's tank. Even an SLA printer has its limitations especially where fragile parts like gun barrels are concerned, but overall I'd say they can be on par with commercially available resin cast vehicles. In the end it's more or less a question of how much you're willing to invest in your printer as well as into the necessary files.

Note that the T-18 above the MG has printed and that is 0.6mm thick! ;)

Offline sundayhero

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Re: 3D printed model quality
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2019, 09:52:29 AM »
Here's a pic of shermans I printed with an anycubic mega i3 (fdm), in 0.1mm slices :



As you can see, surface are smooth. The trick is to print them in ABS, and then (after a bit of sanding) treat them with acetone. It'sa bout the same amount of work (and result) than preparing an average wargame resin or metal kit.
Issue with ABS is wrapping, you need a closed cabinet to keep the environment warm enough to avoid this.

For me the biggest issue with 3D printing (no matter it's a fdm or sla machine) is the speed. Printing a 20mm scale building even in raw 0.3mm takes ages to complete. ANd you cannot really print buildings in ABS because of wrapping, so you have to use PLA instead (with layers visible, then).
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 09:55:12 AM by sundayhero »

Offline YPU

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Re: 3D printed model quality
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2019, 09:34:46 AM »
I'm a bit of a snob when it comes to 3d printed parts, I can't stand the visible lines from extrusion prints.

Going another step up from the anycubic's my form 1 (pretty much venerable and obsolete by now) can do some lovely 6mm tanks (and even infantry)

3d designer, sculptor and printer, at your service!



3d files! (here)