*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 29, 2024, 05:10:31 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Donate

We Appreciate Your Support

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 1691079
  • Total Topics: 118370
  • Online Today: 843
  • Online Ever: 2235
  • (October 29, 2023, 01:32:45 AM)
Users Online

Recent

Author Topic: The Cheshire Military Museum  (Read 1305 times)

Offline carojon

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1125
    • JJ's Wargames
The Cheshire Military Museum
« on: August 30, 2018, 10:15:46 AM »
On a recent visit to Chester I took time to take a look at Chester Military Museum, home to the 22nd Cheshire Regiment among others.



The museum has some really interesting items that cover a long period dating back to the founding of the Cheshire Regiment in 1689.



If you would like to know more then just follow the link to JJ's

https://jjwargames.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-cheshire-military-museum-home-of.html

Jonathan (JJ)
Often it is better to remain silent and let people think you are stupid than to open your mouth and remove all possible doubt.

http://jjwargames.blogspot.co.uk

Offline fred

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4384
    • Miniature Gaming
Re: The Cheshire Military Museum
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2018, 01:10:29 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to write up this visit. A very interesting museum - and pretty local for me too - not that I was aware of it.

Offline carojon

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1125
    • JJ's Wargames
Re: The Cheshire Military Museum
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2018, 10:43:10 AM »
Thanks Fred, glad you enjoyed the read.
You have a cracking local regimental museum and one well worth a visit.

JJ

Offline blacksoilbill

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1494
Re: The Cheshire Military Museum
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2018, 01:55:17 PM »
That guy in the first photo really needs to read the signs.  ;)

Offline Arrigo

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1074
  • errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum est
    • Forward HQ my new blog where you can laugh at my crappy photos!
Re: The Cheshire Military Museum
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2018, 06:11:38 PM »
you are a bit harsh with Percival. I agree Bennet was a problem, but in the end Percival did what he could based on resources available, a specific set of priorities from London (he was to defend the naval base at Singapore rather than deny it, thus he had fight as far north as possible). As Farrell argues his decision to surrender when he did probably spared Singapore from becoming another Nanking. Bennet on the other hand... well he ran aways, and even ordered his artillery to fire on British and other Commonwealth  troops...  I think MacArthur was right to have both Percival and Wainwright  on the USS Missouri.

The Cheshires (6th Battalion) fought not far away from my town in Italy. I also happen to know the last Regimental Commander (last of the Cheshires, first of of the Mercians).

Looking at the regimental museums both in person and on the net make me always sad. The MoD squandered away a massive heritage with their humongous mega-regiments (and then you have specific battalions inside the mega-regiments, carrying the colours and traditions of the old single battalion regiments... ahhhh... one wonders...)
"Put Grant straight in"

for pretty tanks and troops: http://forwardhq.blogspot.com

Offline Sir_Theo

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1266
Re: The Cheshire Military Museum
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2018, 06:34:00 PM »
I did work experience at this museum when I was 15 and had an amazing time chatting to the guys working there (a retired Major, a current Major and a pair of retired Non Coms who were amazing funny and formidable guys) but the museum was very old school and most of its best stuff was locked away in storage. It was great to visit years later and see its face-lift. Its a small but perfectly formed regimental museum and well worth a visit if you are even in Chester. Its a short walk from there to the Grosvenor Museum which is well worth a visit particularly for its stuff about the previous Military unit to inhabit the city the Legio vigesima Valeria Victrix.

Offline carojon

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1125
    • JJ's Wargames
Re: The Cheshire Military Museum
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2018, 07:29:26 PM »
Thanks for your comments chaps.
A really interesting regimental museum to visit, which I hope came across.

Arrigo - Well I reckon we will have to agree to disagree about Percival. A very intelligent man who in fact earned his spurs as an effective intelligence officer and staff officer and yes he failed to get the reinforcements he recognized he needed, not entirely unsurprising given the strains of war imposed by the Western Desert, but he stands out as a particularly uninspiring, ineffective leader who failed to impose his will on his command or the situation he faced.

The forces at his disposal were woefully prepared for fighting in the terrain they did despite the threat the Japanese were known to pose and their effectiveness was shown how woeful by those units that did train for the coming battle, in spite of his lack of leadership, and stood out for it.

I think perhaps Yamashita's view that Percival greatly underestimated him and his army is revealing and as a view from the other side rather confirms his performance overall.

I agree that it was right for Percival to be at the Japanese surrender if only to remind everyone that the troops under his command had fought with great courage and determination in the face of medieval barbarity, a struggle that went on even when they were condemned to slave labour as prisoners of war. I had personal experience meeting many of those veterans on a visit to the area in 2005 with the British Legion and their humour in the face of their treatment and descriptions of the battle they faced is a lasting memory.




Offline Arrigo

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1074
  • errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum est
    • Forward HQ my new blog where you can laugh at my crappy photos!
Re: The Cheshire Military Museum
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2018, 08:04:57 PM »
Jon,

I shared your views about Percival until I read Farrell. Percival basically is blamed for a lot of thing he was not responsible for, including a lot of interference from the fat cigar smoking guy... It was not just the Western Desert,  it was eastern Africa, Syria, and the aid to Russia. London scrapped reinforcing Malaya and Burma (where my British Army idol, William Slim was beaten, saved by the NRA, but never blamed...) several times, despite warnings.  Yes he could have done more to train his Indian units, but on the other hand his battalions were constantly milked to create new ones. On top of that he was wedded by Churchill to the concept to defend the naval base and the mass of empty RAF airfield everywhere in the peninsula.

Finally there was the complicated chain of command. He had more or less no authority over Bennett because Bennett styled himself (without authority one must add) as commander of a separate contingent and was willing to cooperate only if more authority was granted to him. Bennett refused subordination to Heath (III Corps commander) and acted only when granted a sort of corps command later on.  It was a mess and when given authority over other units Bennett did not prove capable to control them effectively (he had a division HQ after all).

Yes Percival could, and probably in a perfect world, should have cracked hard on Bennett. But Bennett was Australian,  London has more or less ignored Australian warnings and just siphoned troops for the ETO/MTO (including Churchill's adventures) so the War Office ordered Percival to stay put.  It is worth to note that Wavell did not really improve anything even when sent there.

I will also add that Tom Phillips did a real poor job (messing with air cover, failing to inform Singapore he had been spotted, failing to inform his chief of staff he was changing plans and that air cover should have been re-arranged, then the CO of the Prince made several poor tactical decisions during the actual engagement...), but having gone down with his ships no one is willing to go too hard on him.

Things Percival could have done:
1) replacing Heath when he was showing sings of fatigue, but with whom? Paris was an alternative, but he was fatigued too and he was a brigade commander.
2) scrapping the defense plan and just deny Singapore (but Churchill would have removed him).
3) forcing Bennett to do his job, but it was politically impossible both with London and Canberra.

One issue with Bennett is that his own expectation to lead the AIF was not completely unfounded. Blamey appointment over him has more to do with Australian politics than military competence (incidentally plenty of officers, Australian and American had a poor view of Blamey). Reading Farrell I got the impression that Curtin was unwilling to rein Bennett for a while being afraid of his pre-war relationship with Blamey being put into the spotlight.

I will be wary of Yamashita's comments. He was competent, but also prone to underestimate his adversaries and certainly he had some issues in the campaign including a progressive slip of control over his troops. It is also worth to remember that Yamashita 'buckled' his own estimates and was more or less one month late in taking Singapore.  I am also not at all persuaded that the Japanese showed great effectiveness in the campaign. Yes some units performed well, some much less. The three divisions employed were certainly of different quality. Japanese tactical doctrine proved superior in Malaya, no doubt. But on a certain level it was more a case of the Japanese almost unknowingly exploiting weak link in the CW doctrine (that they themselves did not really known).

Conclusion:

in a similar situation even Slim failed, he escaped to India and rose to almost mythical proportions, in large part because Burma debacle was hidden by Singapore. In Percival's situation few would have done better.


I have designed a nice little game on the topic (self promotion bit! It is cheap you can get printed or PDF, it is called Lion of Malaya and it is published by tiny Battle Publishing, you can find it on wargame vault!) and I think to have portrayed a balanced view of the situation. People are always welcome to try to improve on their historical counterparts' performance!  :)

Despite being a great admirer of Japan, and having plenty of Japanese friends I cannot really disagree with your last bits. What happened toward the end of the campaign (hospital murders, the butchering of Malay troops) and after is not going to the credit of the Imperial Japanese Army (understatement!).