Men Of Bronze

[boywundyrx]

Great thread, I just came across mention of these rules independently Friday, then saw Nic's post on TMP about his blog Friday night, and from that landed here. Very excited about these and what appear to be their sister-rules, Heirs to Empire, for the immediate post-Alexander period.

Being an odd person, I note Magister Militum's 3mm ancients range will cover both rulesets pretty well... and I've had a 3mm Dux Bellorum/Eagles Rampant project for Romans proper planned for a while.

Look forward to more information and seeing MoB next year.

Chris

[Irregular Wars Nic]

Great thread, I just came across mention of these rules independently Friday, then saw Nic's post on TMP about his blog Friday night, and from that landed here.

I haven't posted on TMP in... two years maybe? I wonder who is posting my blog there?

[Charlie_]

I haven't posted on TMP in... two years maybe? I wonder who is posting my blog there?

You've been Tango'd.

[Arrigo]

You've been Tango'd.

   Before I left TMP I got the impression that chap has serious issues... I am sure he is one of those chaps who phone the police claiming to be an important witness...

now back to important business... what about Heirs to the Empire? That looks even tastier!

[Charlie_]

  Before I left TMP I got the impression that chap has serious issues... I am sure he is one of those chaps who phone the police claiming to be an important witness...

Though to be fair, in this case he has provided some free advertising for these rules 

[Antonio J Carrasco]

By the way, did you hear about War Banner's new ruleset, Mortal Gods - Test of Courage? It covers -roughly- the same period than yours, but it is based on the system Test of Honour.

2019 looks like it's going to be a Greek Year, for wargaming purposes.

[Easy E]

Yes, I heard of them.  I look forward to some new, cool models. 

Regarding the Macedonians for Nic, the Hill Tribe list does not specifically call for Heavy Cavalry, BUT the rules are clear that the Army Lists presented are a sample and I always encourage players to build their own where appropriate.  All the units you mention ARE in the game and a list like you outlined is very playable. 

I also have a short "ahistoric" battle report for the system at my blog....

As Phillip II's, army marched south from Macedon and into Greece the rival Greek city-states prepared to resist. Of course, Phillip was a canny warrior and political operative. As his main force moved to the decisive battle in Chaeronea, he split off small forces of soldiers to desecrate and destroy shrines and temples sacred to his opponents. He wanted them to be demoralized and prove that not even the gods could save them from his armies. As one of these detachments came to a shrine to Apollo, they encountered the unexpected. A pilgrimage of Spartan warriors and their Helot followers had made a pilgrimage to the site.

The Spartans were no friends of the Thebans or their Boetian League. However, when the Macedonian officer demanded they remove themselves from the shrine, he challenged their laconic sense of pride. The Spartan commander simply responded, “Move us.... if you can.”

Such disrespect made the young Macedonian commanders blood boil in rage. He would show these impudent Spartans who the new rulers of Greece were. He ordered his men and allied Thessalian infantry to prepare to attack.


Courtesy of: https://www.amazon.com/Men-Bronze-Ancient-Hoplite-Wargames/dp/1472832612

Clearly, this is an “ahistoric” battle. There is no evidence that Phillip waged spiritual warfare against the Greeks, and there is very little chance that a Macedonian Phalanx would have come to blows with a Spartan contingent north of Thebes; if at all. However, I wanted a small battle that used the models that I had painted at the moment, so this is what we get....

Forces

Spartans
1 Elite Phalanx
1 Psiloi
1 Peltast
- 18 Points

Macedonians
1 Macedonian Phalanx
1 Militia Hoplite
-18 points

Mission
This will be a Desecrate the Sacred scenario. The Spartans would be the defenders of the shrine that would be placed in the rough center of the 4x3 board. The shrine would be difficult terrain. The defenders can place 1 unit in the shrine, while the others come in from the board edge. Meanwhile, the Macedonians would come in from the opposite board edge.

If the Macedonians could keep a unit in the ruins for 1d3 turns, they would desecrate the place. The Spartans just had to keep them out.

Set-up
The Spartans choose to place their Phalanx in the shrine, with their Peltasts and Psiloi rushing on to relieve them. The Macedonians lined up with their main phalanx heading straight for the shrine, and their allies to their left in the field. The Macedonians and the Spartans begin in Phalanx, while the others (including the Thessalians) are in open order.



You can read all about the final results of this skirmish on the blog: https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2018/10/men-of-bronze-battle-report-desecrate.html

[Arrigo]

Also desecrating Temple would have been a boon to Theban-Athenian cause... and could have created issues inside his own army too, after all the Macedonionas  were considered rustics, but still Hellenic rustics rather than barbarians. Actually Philip accused his opponents of this in the Third Sacred War... but the scenario is interesting.  When I did my class on Greek history... the main subject for the year, was Philip vs Athens!

But beside Men of Bronze, can you shed some more information on the Hellenistic version?

Arrigo

[Easy E]

Also desecrating Temple would have been a boon to Theban-Athenian cause... and could have created issues inside his own army too, after all the Macedonionas  were considered rustics, but still Hellenic rustics rather than barbarians. Actually Philip accused his opponents of this in the Third Sacred War... but the scenario is interesting.  When I did my class on Greek history... the main subject for the year, was Philip vs Athens!

But beside Men of Bronze, can you shed some more information on the Hellenistic version?

Arrigo

Yes, like I said.... very ahistorical but I wanted to use what I had painted...... so in the long tradition of gamers everywhere..... I made some stuff up.     Plus, I guarantee that you guys probably know WAY more about the period than I ever could.   

As for the Hellenistic game do you mean Heirs to Empire?  If so, that is in the very early stages with Osprey even though I have played a many games of it.  I expect that if Men of Bronze does okay, they will move forward with it, and if it doesn't do well.... R.I.P. to the Wars of the Diadochi version.   

I will say this.  It is scale and base agnostic, but the "scale" of the game is different.  For example, the armies are organized by left, right, and central wings as opposed to the whole army just picking stuff.  In addition, the game assumes officers are putting their units in the right battle formations so the Diadochi can focus more on how the units will be supporting each other in a combined arms approach.   I will be using Bacchus 6mm, but again the game itself is base and scale agnostic. 

[boywundyrx]

I haven't posted on TMP in... two years maybe? I wonder who is posting my blog there?

Oops, sorry Nic, I was posting in haste and hadn't caught who'd put the TMP post up. I'd jumped straight from it to your blog.

(I'm also a TMP exile, been about a year for me).

Chris

[Irregular Wars Nic]

Regarding the Macedonians for Nic, the Hill Tribe list does not specifically call for Heavy Cavalry, BUT the rules are clear that the Army Lists presented are a sample and I always encourage players to build their own where appropriate.  All the units you mention ARE in the game and a list like you outlined is very playable. 

  As long as there is that sort of inbuilt flexibility, you'll get no complaints from me.

Heavy cavalry are what... 8 points?

[Irregular Wars Nic]

Oops, sorry Nic, I was posting in haste and hadn't caught who'd put the TMP post up. I'd jumped straight from it to your blog.

(I'm also a TMP exile, been about a year for me).

Chris

No bother. Just happy we've both found a better place. 

[Easy E]

Eric, I have compiled everything that I currently know regarding your rules in preparation of building my first 10mm army.

https://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2018/10/men-of-bronze-what-do-we-know.html

If there is anything you want to add (or correct), please let me know.

Cheers,

Nic

I was re-reading your blog and I realized that there was a key game component that you can find in the battle reports that you did not mention. 

Arete Points.  (Sorry, I do not know how to give it the right accent mark on forums and blogs)  These are a resource that you get from your units that you can then spend to do various actions in the game.  Some examples include, forming a phalanx formation, charging, bidding for initiative, interrupting the turn, re-rolls, evading, moving and shooting, etc.  They are a limited resource that you have to use through out the game to get the most out of your units.  This adds an element of decision making at all parts of the turn for both players as well as resource management.  If you are familiar with Dux Bellorum it is an expanded concept of Leadership tokens.   

Should you try to bid high to earn the initiative or save the Arete points for key movement through difficult terrain?  Should you trigger a charge or keep the point for a re-roll in a key combat?  This forces you to think about what you want to accomplish in a turn and bid and use points accordingly.  This helps the game be a bit more "tactical" then just the thrusting of spears and the push of shields with a bunch of dice rolls.     

[Irregular Wars Nic]

Can't wait!

I will amend the blog - or post an update. Thanks Eric.

Nic

[mellis1644]

Would DBA armies (or quite similar size forces) be usable with the rules?

Seems like with a slight modification to measuring that should work...