Global Implications of VBCW?

[Arlequín]

I beg to differ. There has been a fair amount of research done on the what's, when's and how many's of arms deliveries in the SCW.

Just talking Panzer I, the initial vehicles came from 1st Panzer Division and were surplus 'A' models, which were to due to be replaced by new 'B' models. Likewise the final deliveries to Spain in the last year of the war were the first 'B' models supplied, which themselved had been replaced in their former units by new Panzer II.

From 1936 the T-26 was built with a welded hull and from 1938 with a new turret type. Neither of these feature on vehicles supplied to Spain, so the vehicles sent cannot have been made later than 1935. The BT-5 was produced from 1933-35, when it was replaced in production by the BT-7. The BT-5 didn't appear in Spain until Autumn 1937.

The Soviets supplied thousands of Lewis Guns, Hotchkiss, Colt, CSRG, Maxim and other machine guns, dating from the RCW, but very few DP light machine guns, which were the 'in-service' type of the Red Army. McClean Guns and even guns supplied by France to Russia in the Great War (e.g. 155mm mle 1877 & 1877/16) were sent to Spain. The Germans supplied MG13 and MG15Na light machine guns to the Rebels, but no MG 34s. The Czechs sold the Republic war reparation Austro-Hungarian machine guns and artillery.

Many of the 'Mexicanski' rifles were stamped 'Made in Connecticut', or with Czarist Imperial Eagles, so clearly not new.

Aircraft and anti-tank guns apart, hardly anything that was actually brand new made it to Spain.

[CaptainBigglesmay]

I think you'll find 'Sea Lion' holds that position.

See i'd disagree with this, Sealion gets little mention due to it descending into a Dad's Army spin off or a "you've run out of supplies, lose" or "Oh the British state can never survive". In short a bit dull, samey and deserves remaining at Staff Colleges.

VBCW on the other hand has kept going from strength to strength, I'm always seeing new factions, plot or armies. Let alone that at least 5 different figure companies making figures for it, and far more indirectly.

I might be coming across as a bit heavy but I do feel VBCW to have really captured something.

[Arlequín]

I never said Sealion was the most interesting and dynamic scenario, just that it was the most sucessful.

Given that there are at least ten mass-market 'serious' history books I can think of off the top of my head, one quite popular and one not so popular supplement for the current most popular WWII skirmish game, and it is rare for other rule sets not to delve into it in addition, would support that assertion.

Google 'Wargaming Operation Sealion' and you get a mass of content, 'VBCW' not so much. That's not in any way a dig at VBCW, which is certainly the most successful created setting; if you exclude Middle Earth and probably Westeros.

[CaptainBigglesmay]

I do wonder if Warlord would have made a "Sealion" rule book if not for VBCW however. Given the number of "hints" towards it, Sealion as a historical exercise always strikes me more as a "very well alone" coffee table subject which you often find in the second run book shops rather than a serious wargame material.

But then nor is VBCW quite... Thankfully

[FramFramson]

But then nor is VBCW quite... Thankfully

IMO, that's rather the point. Someone who takes VBCW dead seriously is rather the sort who probably shouldn't be playing it.

[Arlequín]

... or writing it. While I wouldn't consider myself 'dead serious' about anything much, warlike cricketers and the other silliness people injected into the setting, ruined it for me and quite a few others, including at least one of the creators I believe.

The slant Muttonchop and Footsore put onto their VBCW figures was fine with me, beyond that was a parody too far.

Certainly Warlord tried to set a foot in each camp with its Sealion supplements. 'Hints' at VBCW is a politer way than I would have put it and I think that it was a mistake to go down that road and quite clumsy in its execution to boot.

There was enough whimsy and farce in the real thing to go around, without trying to capitalise on a perceived VBCW Underground looking for something new to pitch their Morrismen at.

One man's meat and all that, but there is a vast gulf between 'counterfactual' and 'alien space bats' sectors in the realm of alternate history. I'm very much in favour of the former and spontaneous humour in my games... if that wasn't obvious to anyone. 

[FramFramson]

Well, part of the appeal is that there's room for players to choose their own level of silliness.

[AKULA]

IMO, that's rather the point. Someone who takes VBCW dead seriously is rather the sort who probably shouldn't be playing it.

Spot on.

For my part, I enjoyed coming up with the fluff for the Yorkist Front - the attraction of VBCW was researching the state of affairs locally in the late 1930s and seeing what could have been out to use in a civil war....where were the key resources, road junctions, railway lines, barracks....what could be pressed into service, and who were likely to be the moan protagonists.

Personally, the spirit of VBCW was about the “fatal flaw”....by all means strap a great big cannon onto a chassis, but it’s more fun if it only carries a couple of shells, or there is a chance the gun will fly off the first time you fire it....

 

I took part in some mass games, which were great fun - the seaborne invasion of Hull, where players were trying to sink the Argus training carrier with Swordfish was hilarious, but later on when some people started to field mass armies of panzers “loaned” from Germany from table edge to table edge, it began to take some of the enjoyment out of it for me, and I drifted onto other projects.

[tin shed gamer]

You must have invade d form the east.They're all bit weird that side of the river.

Hull is such a belligerent hive of indifference that the rest of the country is hard pushed to find it on a map.
It's black humoured character's( once you get past the devastation of the fishing industry). Going back to the civil war when the city told both sides to go away (actually he used a phrase that started with an f and ended with an f. ((To both the king and parliament))Which was partly why when the war ended the winner's chose a sticky end for him rather than a custodial sentence.)
Everything from the Hull pals battalions loathing each other. To the fire brigades fighting in the street and letting White fryer gate burn as far as the land of Green Ginger. Because it's old town and each company thought they exclusively covered the street.The city centre was punctuated by working docks.with art galleries department stores and banks jostling for space with dock cranes and ship yards(before the input of the German town planning committee in the 40's)
Even the telephone boxes are a different colour to the rest of the country( great way of representing the east riding just add cream colouered phone boxes)
And it's that kind of tapestry of local history thats woven into a VBCW game that feeds it's popularity.
I agree that once you move away from the Heath Robinson approach to your forces . You might as well pick up any set of ww2 rules instead.
( still slowly plodding away on enough buildings for a propper east riding game with water towers and dodgy narrow winding roads.)

Mark.

[AKULA]

You must have invade d form the east.They're all bit weird that side of the river.

 

If memory serves me, it was Yorkists driving eastwards, BUF making an amphibious assault from the south, and the dock workers fighting everyone (including amongst themselves).

It did give me the opportunity to build a ten foot long aircraft carrier plus a four foot destroyer escort though...to illustrate the point about “fatal flaw”, the Argus was a training Carrier, and by this point it’s only air defences were machine guns, making it a very large sitting duck.

[tin shed gamer]

 The carrier is longer than my gaming board.
(Only room to store a 3x3 board. Plus I never have time for bigger games. Admittedly I could just walk across the road to North Hull but they're more 20mm chaps.)
Did you use Q ships ? As you could get in land easily as far as Beverley with one.

[Arlequín]

Well, part of the appeal is that there's room for players to choose their own level of silliness.

Sure, I'm all for not spoiling anybody else's fun, but you have to have some guidelines all the same. Wayback when it was 'no panzers', then from what Akula has said, that line was crossed.

There's a cycle. I was once able to point a finger at who I thought was taking it all a bit too seriously, being a bit anal about stuff and seemingly out to spoil my fun.

When they drifted away I was suddenly in their place and to the guy who might want to field the Bicycling Bavarian Oompah Band mit panzers und lederhosen, I was the curmugeon with no sense of humour out to spoil their fun.

VBCW did and does capture something special and unique, but unfortunately that thing is not necessarily the same thing to everyone that plays VBCW.

[FramFramson]

You must have invade d form the east.They're all bit weird that side of the river.

Hull is such a belligerent hive of indifference that the rest of the country is hard pushed to find it on a map.
It's black humoured character's( once you get past the devastation of the fishing industry). Going back to the civil war when the city told both sides to go away (actually he used a phrase that started with an f and ended with an f. ((To both the king and parliament))Which was partly why when the war ended the winner's chose a sticky end for him rather than a custodial sentence.)
Everything from the Hull pals battalions loathing each other. To the fire brigades fighting in the street and letting White fryer gate burn as far as the land of Green Ginger. Because it's old town and each company thought they exclusively covered the street.The city centre was punctuated by working docks.with art galleries department stores and banks jostling for space with dock cranes and ship yards(before the input of the German town planning committee in the 40's)
Even the telephone boxes are a different colour to the rest of the country( great way of representing the east riding just add cream colouered phone boxes)
And it's that kind of tapestry of local history thats woven into a VBCW game that feeds it's popularity.
I agree that once you move away from the Heath Robinson approach to your forces . You might as well pick up any set of ww2 rules instead.
( still slowly plodding away on enough buildings for a propper east riding game with water towers and dodgy narrow winding roads.)

Mark.

[jetengine]

What surprises me is that I've not come across any American game that applies this rule set to America. I would have thought this would be an Ideal 'what if 'template given you have the Mine Wars as a starting point.

Mark.

Several reasons I suspect.

The last Civil War is still fresh in the US mind, the last Veteran of it dying in the 50s. Its knock on effects are still being dealt with via the warped politics and racial issues evident in their society. Even today there is the odd rumbling of "Violent right wing uprising" if they dont get their way, that makes such a thing as a 'Civil War 2.0' less fun as a subject matter.

[warrenpeace]

Well, perhaps some people will apply that local focus of VBCW, as in the Hull example, to such far flung bits of the Empire as Jamaica, British East Africa, Singapore, and Hong Kong...