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Author Topic: What Fantasy mass battle rules are out there?  (Read 7693 times)

Offline grubman

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 646
Re: What Fantasy mass battle rules are out there?
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2018, 12:00:00 PM »
Is HotT still in print?

Yes, it’s still in print, and on edition 3.0

I got mine from black hat

https://www.blackhat.co.uk/product/horde-of-the-things-2-1/

a few years back (after waiting painfully for a re-stock).

Problem is, it’s regularly (as it is now) “out of stock”.  They usually print a bunch, sell them, and then you have to wait about 6 months for it to be in stock again.  Very annoying if your waiting for a copy.

You can still get a copy here (below) for a little more...ironic, since it’s in the USA, and 90% of what I order I have to get from the UK at ridiculous shipping fees.

http://onmilitarymatters.com/pages/dfsearch.php?term=keywords&data=Hordes+of+the+things&submit=Search
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 07:52:15 PM by grubman »
Mice-Aat-Arms Miniatures and Rules: https://rrbminis.com/mice-at-arms/

Offline grubman

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  • Posts: 646
Re: What Fantasy mass battle rules are out there?
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2018, 12:28:52 PM »
Now, as far as the topic itself...

...sigh

I LOVE fantasy, and I love “mass” battles.  I played Warhammer Fantasy Battles weekly and almost exclusively for a decade with 4th, 5th, and finally 6th edition.

When I first started, most of my minis were 3rd edition, and as time went on I gradually sold painted models to pay for newer models.  The only original model I still have is my snotty pump wagon and a handful of plastic regiment of renown figures.  Oh how I now regret my youthful stupidity and wish I had my original collection of Oldhammer figures.

In any case.  When WFB died...it really took mass battles with it.  We now live in the age of the “skirmish” game.  People want to buy and paint a handful of miniatures and play.  They want a shinny new rulebooks, and monthly supplements...and they want to turn around and do it all over again a year later with the newest shiny new thing that comes out.

KoW makes a good effort, and while I’m sure it’s popular in some pockets...it’s not the same as the days when EVERY game store you walked in had a wall full of WFB, and everyone you met who played a miniature gamewas playing WFB.

Trust me, I’ve been looking for a “replacement” for years.  I have a stack of old and new fantasy games and more historical ones (for possible conversions).  None feel the same as WFB, none do the same thing, and finding people who want to rabidly invest time, money, and effort into being a fantasy mass battles hobbiest is an excercise in depressive futility.

Even if you do all the work and spend all the money (which I’ve done in the past)...you are left with an emptiness, since likeminded obsessive gamers are what makes the whole hobby fun, and begging people to play one of two games of something you’ve invested so much in, quite frankly SUCKS!

I even tried a crossover to ancients, with their element based armies.  But again, it’s not the same.  Old historical grognards are getting harder and harder to find, and the majority of them are anal about their history...so if you want to fight a huge battle between Vikings and the French of the Hundred Years War, you are going to be met with a ton of resistance.

BUT...there may be the tiniest glimmer of hope with Oathmark.  It’s hard to tell, since we are getting miniatures before rules.  The miniatures are nice*...but if the rules are too dry, or have a bunch of gimmicks, bells, whistles, or counters (let’s look at the Song of Fire and Ice mini/board game...for instance) it could be dead before it arrives.

*What gives me hope are that these miniatures aren’t ridiculously overdone with unnecessary “darkness” and silly detail, spikes, chains, and ornaments no sensible warrior would wear into battle.

That’s my rant, end of chapter 1...
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 12:31:37 PM by grubman »

Offline LotB

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Re: What Fantasy mass battle rules are out there?
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2018, 01:53:51 PM »
Hi Grubman
You wrote that " When WFB died...it really took mass battles with it ".
Well, let me disagree.
 If it (WBF) is dead, by the will of its creator, this does not mean that the fantasy wargame is dead too.
 For many years all over the world players have continued to play Fantasy Warriors, even after the closure before the Grenadier and then the Stratelibri. But from the 2004 there is MIRLITON that continues to distribute it ...... for free!
We, Naran Team Torino, in Italy, and the Frothers group in Great Britain have helped to keep alive the interest in the beautiful wargame which is Fantasy Warriors, according to many much better than WFB.
As far as we are concerned, in the year 2000 (eighteen years ago!) We had expanded Fantasy Warriors with the addition of new armies based essentially on GW miniatures: Lizardmen, Rat Men, Warriors and Chaos Creatures , etc. And then we extended the armies to allow us to use other miniatures produced by many other companies: Crocodile and Mantic, to name just two, but also Reaper and many others, including those that produce historical miniatures (Aventine, Victrix, Black Tree, and other).
In total, more than 60 Fantasy Warriors armies are managed by us:
 
http://www.naran.it/naran/International/fantasy/armies/a00_armies_page.htm

We are now working on the FIFTH edition and have already released several new army lists. The previous edition were: 2000 - 2004 - 2007-2008 - 2012.
So, for us, the "fantasy wargame" is alive and well, and it survives very well without WFB.

Cheers,
Naran Team Turin
http://www.naran.it/naran/

Offline grubman

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Re: What Fantasy mass battle rules are out there?
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2018, 02:34:00 PM »
“Dead” isn’t really meant to be taken exactly literally.  When it comes to games, nothing is ever totally dead, as there will always be pockets of gamers and isolated groups still joyfully playing the games they love.

But these isolated gamers and groups don’t make a game “alive” , even if it’s supported (usually Online).

Lots of people have the illusion that their game is still fundamentally “alive” because they have a group of freinds still playing, or they belong to online groups or forums...they may even be able to recruit new people into the fold.

But a game is truly alive when you see it in every game store you walk into, you have people playing regularly in every game store you go into, you can meet and join groups in any are you move to, and you can find a pickup game (often with a stranger) whenever you have the urge to play.

And before you argue, remember that WFB and (big battle) 40K were mainstream like that for 2 decades, give or take by location.

One often doesn’t realize this unless they move around from location to location, or have a longtime group dissolve.  You can aggressively and actively search for a group for a “dead” game forever without any luck...all the while, the current “alive” games have scores of players, just like I described above (with WFB in the day).  I live less than 30 minutes from 2 game stores, and if I want to play Sigmar, Kill Team, Magic, the Star Wars game of the month, or 5th edition D&D, I’m set at the drop of a hat.

There is a reason why, for example, people look to retro-clone RPGs or games that replaced popular OoP games (the multitude of WAB games anyone?) instead of just playing the old favorite.  They want to be part of something that feels energetic, offers opportunities to play instead of just wishing, and makes you feel part of a mainstream (in our hobby) community.

[Edit] And no insult to FW, but I’ve never seen anyone play it at a game store, of the multitude of conventions I’ve been at.  My old FLGS had one copy of the boxed set for sale next to WFB 4th edition...then still sitting next to boxes of 5th edition, and finally opened to sell the miniatures while discarding the rest of the box (I know, because the owner was a “friend” of mine and sold me the miniatures for 50 cents apiece).

Hi Grubman
You wrote that " When WFB died...it really took mass battles with it ".
Well, let me disagree.
 If it (WBF) is dead, by the will of its creator, this does not mean that the fantasy wargame is dead too.
 For many years all over the world players have continued to play Fantasy Warriors, even after the closure before the Grenadier and then the Stratelibri. But from the 2004 there is MIRLITON that continues to distribute it ...... for free!
We, Naran Team Torino, in Italy, and the Frothers group in Great Britain have helped to keep alive the interest in the beautiful wargame which is Fantasy Warriors, according to many much better than WFB.
As far as we are concerned, in the year 2000 (eighteen years ago!) We had expanded Fantasy Warriors with the addition of new armies based essentially on GW miniatures: Lizardmen, Rat Men, Warriors and Chaos Creatures , etc. And then we extended the armies to allow us to use other miniatures produced by many other companies: Crocodile and Mantic, to name just two, but also Reaper and many others, including those that produce historical miniatures (Aventine, Victrix, Black Tree, and other).
In total, more than 60 Fantasy Warriors armies are managed by us:
 
http://www.naran.it/naran/International/fantasy/armies/a00_armies_page.htm

We are now working on the FIFTH edition and have already released several new army lists. The previous edition were: 2000 - 2004 - 2007-2008 - 2012.
So, for us, the "fantasy wargame" is alive and well, and it survives very well without WFB.

Cheers,
Naran Team Turin
http://www.naran.it/naran/
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 02:50:14 PM by grubman »

Offline Sir_Theo

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1266
Re: What Fantasy mass battle rules are out there?
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2018, 02:50:04 PM »
I really like Kings of war. Later editions of Warhammer were so clunky I much prefer the more streamlined approach of KoW. How anyone played Warhammer as a tournament game I will never know.

I'm the UK at least there seems to be a healthy KoW community and plenty of tournaments for those who like that sort of thing. Mantic support it well and it adequately fills the WHFB hole.

EDIF: The OP didn't like the magic system of KoW. It might be worth revisiting. The spell list is a lot bigger in the newer edition. And has been expanded by the Clash of King's books.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 02:53:07 PM by Sir_Theo »

Offline grubman

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Re: What Fantasy mass battle rules are out there?
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2018, 02:57:09 PM »
I'm the UK at least there seems to be a healthy KoW community and plenty of tournaments for those who like that sort of thing. Mantic support it well and it adequately fills the WHFB hole.

Yep, from what I can tell from online friends, the UK is always better when it comes to miniature game diversity, than the states (try to find a HotT group in the states, ha ha).  I though KoW would capture the old WFB crowd, but it doesn’t seem to have gained too much steam.  Shiny new Skirmish games with lots of flash, gimmicks, and bells and whistles are all the rage everywhere I go.

Offline pixelgeek

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Re: What Fantasy mass battle rules are out there?
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2018, 03:38:55 PM »
In any case.  When WFB died...it really took mass battles with it.  We now live in the age of the “skirmish” game.  People want to buy and paint a handful of miniatures and play.  They want a shinny new rulebooks, and monthly supplements...and they want to turn around and do it all over again a year later with the newest shiny new thing that comes out.

I suspect that this has more to do with the gaming market than anything. GW's fantasy sales were minimal before Age of Sigmar. Skirmish games with lots of add-ons and expansions also make them a nice stream of income as well.

I am getting back into playing Warmaster with the release of the Warmaster Revolution rules but I suspect that 10mm figures for that system are difficult to come by.

A freeform game like Mayhem really seems like a good place to start since it is scale and figure range agnostic

Offline LotB

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Re: What Fantasy mass battle rules are out there?
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2018, 05:02:33 PM »
“Dead” isn’t really meant to be taken exactly literally.  When it comes to games, nothing is ever totally dead, as there will always be pockets of gamers and isolated groups still joyfully playing the games they love.

[omissis]

[Edit] And no insult to FW, but I’ve never seen anyone play it at a game store, of the multitude of conventions I’ve been at.  My old FLGS had one copy of the boxed set for sale next to WFB 4th edition...then still sitting next to boxes of 5th edition, and finally opened to sell the miniatures while discarding the rest of the box (I know, because the owner was a “friend” of mine and sold me the miniatures for 50 cents apiece).

Hi Grubman,

Friend, I just said that I did not agree with you that the fantasy wargame was "dead", I only expressed my opion, and as the ancient Romans said "De gustibus non est disputandum ".

Regarding the fact of seeing Fantasy Warriors played at a Wargame Convention, well, we plan to sign up for the next "Milano Wargames" Convention,  that will take place in Novegro - Milan on Sunday, February 24th.
If you come, you will see a beautiful Fantasy Warriors wargame, in which miniatures of different companies will be used.

On this occasion I wish you a happy end of the year 2018 and an excellent 2019 with lots of fantasy warggames, as we will certainly play.

To all Friends:
In case someone is interested, the”Milano Wargames” Convention is this: http://milanowargames.blogspot.it
The registrations will be open starting after January 10th

Cheers,

Offline Sir_Theo

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1266
Re: What Fantasy mass battle rules are out there?
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2018, 05:51:30 PM »
Yep, from what I can tell from online friends, the UK is always better when it comes to miniature game diversity, than the states (try to find a HotT group in the states, ha ha).  I though KoW would capture the old WFB crowd, but it doesn’t seem to have gained too much steam.  Shiny new Skirmish games with lots of flash, gimmicks, and bells and whistles are all the rage everywhere I go.

I remember reading something that suggested that one of the motivating factors behind GW finishing up with WHFB was that poor sales, particularly in North America, was the real death knell. Seems like fantasy just isn't that big a deal over there.

Maybe Saga:Age of Fantasy, Oathmark or Fantasy Hail Caesar will get more love, but I suspect you are in a minority!


Offline Eric the Shed

  • Galactic Brain
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    • The Shed Wars Experience
Re: What Fantasy mass battle rules are out there?
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2018, 06:30:54 PM »

As has been mentioned old games don't have to die....what is stopping you from resuscitating your passion

It sounds to me like a) you used to love WFB and b) you have several armies - and I suspect that there are hundreds of folks out there in the same position

Why not use this forum, others and blogs to find others with like minded interests and rekindle your passion.

Offline grubman

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Re: What Fantasy mass battle rules are out there?
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2018, 06:57:12 PM »
I remember reading something that suggested that one of the motivating factors behind GW finishing up with WHFB was that poor sales, particularly in North America, was the real death knell. Seems like fantasy just isn't that big a deal over there.

Maybe Saga:Age of Fantasy, Oathmark or Fantasy Hail Caesar will get more love, but I suspect you are in a minority!

Oh definately in the minority.  40K was always more popular, even when I was playing fantasy...but there was still an active fantasy community.  I stopped playing mid-6th edition, as many people started moving on to other things, and by the time 8th edition was around, things were very quiet all around when it came to big battles games.

I re-located to a new area about 6 years ago (central WI, USA...the hub of fantasy role playing).  I immediately set about to find “open minded” (realizing that I’m not entirely open minded myself :)) miniature gamers, since I like to play a variety of less mainstream games.  Open calls on game store sites garnered no interest.  The few other gamers in my peer group I crossed pathes with were very different in their tastes and lifestyles, and the younger gamers here have absolutely no interest in “old school”, only things that are new and quick and easy to pick up and discard.

Trust me, my lament isn’t due to lack of trying.  It’s frustrating to the point of not only letting things sit on the shelf...I’m actually to the point of just calling this a closed chapter in my life and “getting out of the hobby”.

There are better options (still not exactly what I’d like, but better) an hour + drive away...and in the days of my youth I traveled that far weekly.  But just trust me when I say complications make that trip “impossible” without some sacrifices in other important areas.

I should say, my opinions and views are entirely based on my experiences and observations.  I feel I’m fairly perceptive and social...but we all live in some form of bubble of limitations.  For example, if after all my searching, I had found even a single likeminded, dedicated hobbiest, I wouldn’t have felt the need to make the initial rant, ha ha.  But even though there are a lot of introvert aspects of this hobby, it’s the getting together, playing, sharing what you’ve done, and socializing with similar people that make it fun.

Sorry for the thread hyjack.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 06:59:09 PM by grubman »

Offline pixelgeek

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Re: What Fantasy mass battle rules are out there?
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2018, 07:15:35 PM »
I remember reading something that suggested that one of the motivating factors behind GW finishing up with WHFB was that poor sales, particularly in North America, was the real death knell. Seems like fantasy just isn't that big a deal over there.

I think it was poor sales in general. And I suspect that one of the reasons why the fluff wasn't as fleshed out for the initial version was to see if the market was still there for a fantasy game.

Offline fastolfrus

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Re: What Fantasy mass battle rules are out there?
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2018, 11:33:37 PM »
There used to be an American set by a firm called Chipco that were pretty good, although I haven't played them for a while
Gary, Glynis, and Alasdair (there are three of us, but we are too mean to have more than one login)

Offline Sir_Theo

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Re: What Fantasy mass battle rules are out there?
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2018, 11:57:42 PM »
There used to be an American set by a firm called Chipco that were pretty good, although I haven't played them for a while

I recently bought Age of Hannibal by Little Wars TV which they acknowledge is based on Chipco fantasy.

Offline grubman

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Re: What Fantasy mass battle rules are out there?
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2018, 12:21:13 AM »
There used to be an American set by a firm called Chipco that were pretty good, although I haven't played them for a while

Yep, ironically called “Fantasy Rules!”.  You can get the PDF for 3rd edition on their Facebook page.  It used to be about $30, but I think it’s, like $20 now, and bundled with the tournament edition  and Days of Knights (I think), which is a similar set of rules for medieval times.

Generally 15mm on 40mm square based elements.

BUT, I think the OP is looking for new and shiny.  Plus it’s not available in a book, and no rank and file.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 12:29:36 AM by grubman »