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Author Topic: Breton and Franks at Hastings  (Read 4091 times)

Offline CaptainBigglesmay

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Breton and Franks at Hastings
« on: December 24, 2018, 06:56:26 PM »
Looking to pick the hive mind's ideas on what the Breton and Frankish wings looked like at Hastings for the Normans.


Bring me your king!

Is Frank just a technical term for non-Norman French troops armed and organized much the same as the Norman's or is there anything more to them?

Likewise Breton? Always viewed them as poorer equipped troops and perhaps given how that flank falls back during the battle perhaps there's something to that?

How would you use figures to represent these wings? Saxon figures looking less well armed with beards? Look for French troops of the period? There's a few mentions of Mercenaries as well, what form would these take? Even a few mentions of Viking's and Sicilian Normans too.

Thanks for any help.

Offline Mr.J

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Re: Breton and Franks at Hastings
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2018, 07:08:17 PM »
Looking to pick the hive mind's ideas on what the Breton and Frankish wings looked like at Hastings for the Normans.


Bring me your king!

I’d argue not like that. Not sure there’s a huge amount of evidence for lamellar at Hastings. As far as I’m aware there would be very little difference between their appearance, arms or armour. Lots of wargamers distinguish between the Normans and their allies by giving them round shields although again I don’t think there’s much to suggest that this is accurate either.


Offline Metternich

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Re: Breton and Franks at Hastings
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2018, 07:32:50 PM »
Bretons were from Brittany (and not William's subjects, unlike the Norman troops).  They were descended from Celts who had settled in that part of what is today France (Brittany - Britain) and so were not "Franks."  (Just because of their Celtic origins don't think of them using "Celtic" military equipment - that would be like picturing Normans as Vikings).  Their duke Conan fought a (losing) war against William 1064-1066 (After his surrender of the Chateau de Dinan in 1065, Conan fought on in 1066 in Anjou.  Conan died December 1066, supposedly from having put on "poisoned gloves;" William was alleged to have sent him the poisoned gift).
   The Norman-Breton war is illustrated in the Bayeux Tapestry, Scene 19, the Battle of Dinan, where Breton troops in a Motte fort are attacked by William's Normans.  The Bretons appear just about identical in appearance to the Normans (which may or may not be accurate - I tend to think most Miles in Northern France of the period would have had similar equipment).  At Hastings, the Bretons are the Norman-allied troops who started to flee when it was rumored that William had died (they may have been less wedded to William's cause than other contingents and he was not their feudal lord)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton%E2%80%93Norman_War#/media/File:Bayeux_Tapestry_scene19_Dinan.jpg

Offline huevans

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Re: Breton and Franks at Hastings
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2018, 02:18:28 PM »
I tend to agree with the above post. Continental troops would have dressed similarly, as this was the "cutting edge" of military technology at the time. There is some suggestion that the Bretons were unarmoured light cavalry, but any reference to this was from some centuries beforehand.

The Normans thought the English amateurish because they fought in shieldwall and did not make extensive use of cavalry and archers.

Offline Tym

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Re: Breton and Franks at Hastings
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2018, 07:01:57 PM »
So could one assume that there would be no difference in appearance between the Norman's and Breton's.  Same type of equipment, No facial hair?  Their forces of the same composition. Heavy Cavalry, Heavy foot, crossbows

Offline bluewillow

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Re: Breton and Franks at Hastings
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2018, 10:33:37 PM »
The men from Maine (modern Mayenne & Sarthe)  to the south of Normandy. Maine was claimed after the death of Hugh de Maine in 1060 then capturing the border fortresses of Domfront and Alençon, then 1062 captured Mayenne, Craon, Laval and finally st Suzanne and Le Mans in 1064 defeating the Anjou-Maine alliance.

Maine and Anjou sent large contingents of cavalry with William. Maine  is historically the home of the French warhorse the ancestor of the Percheron warhorse.

Armour for the milites would of been similar to the Normans as was the foot similarly armed.

Cheers
Matt
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 09:29:42 AM by bluewillow »

Offline janner

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Re: Breton and Franks at Hastings
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2019, 06:55:20 AM »
As has been posted, distinguishing between Bretons, Normans, and Franks in terms of equipment and tactics is deeply problematic. Moreover, being placed on a flank was not necessarily a sign of weakness or unreliability.

As an aside, it remains unproven that the Celts ever reached Briton in large numbers. The Bretons were originally, as the name suggests, migrant Britons not Celts.

Offline bluewillow

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Re: Breton and Franks at Hastings
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2019, 11:23:35 PM »
In the 4th century the local Bretons of England fled the Angles invasion and later on the Saxons invasion fled to modern Brittany

Offline janner

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Re: Breton and Franks at Hastings
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2019, 07:37:16 AM »
In the 4th century the local Bretons of England fled the Angles invasion and later on the Saxons invasion fled to modern Brittany

Not quite.

Whilst there were Britons in Roman service based in Armorica (modern Brittany) in the 4th Century and established trading ties between the West Country and the region, there is no evidence for a substancial migration until after the Roman withdrawal from the British Isles in the 5th Century.

Similarly, aside for Germanic Auxilliaries and merchants, there is no evidence to support their migration to the British Isles until the 5th Century.

There appear to have been two significant Briton waves to modern Brittany: one that coincided with the Roman withdrawal and a second, well over a century later, as the West Country came under 'germanic' pressure.

Interestingly, the Tribal Hidage and other evidence indicates the Britons remained the dominant culture in, what is now, Cornwall and Devon as late of the 7th Century, possibly onto the 9th.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 07:49:42 AM by janner »

Offline Patrice

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Re: Breton and Franks at Hastings
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2019, 05:11:17 PM »
There was probably no difference in appearance between Bretons and Normans in the 11th century. Norman fashion in weapons shields armour and clothing etc. was overwhelming in the whole area which now is north-west France.

The difference was more in tactics. Breton cavalry was renowned in the 9th century to avoid contact, fight with javelins and use feigned flight. There was probably still some remembrance of this at Hastings.

Offline bluewillow

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Re: Breton and Franks at Hastings
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2019, 07:15:01 PM »
Not quite.

Whilst there were Britons in Roman service based in Armorica (modern Brittany) in the 4th Century and established trading ties between the West Country and the region, there is no evidence for a substancial migration until after the Roman withdrawal from the British Isles in the 5th Century.

Similarly, aside for Germanic Auxilliaries and merchants, there is no evidence to support their migration to the British Isles until the 5th Century.

There appear to have been two significant Briton waves to modern Brittany: one that coincided with the Roman withdrawal and a second, well over a century later, as the West Country came under 'germanic' pressure.

Interestingly, the Tribal Hidage and other evidence indicates the Britons remained the dominant culture in, what is now, Cornwall and Devon as late of the 7th Century, possibly onto the 9th.

Agree,

 Pierre-Roland Giot a leading French archaeologist, anthropologist ,geologist in his book the British settlement of Brittany, the First Bretons in Armorica, proposes two waves one in the 4th century and late 5th early 6th.

cheers
Matt


Offline Metternich

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Re: Breton and Franks at Hastings
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2019, 10:48:15 PM »
Janner,  in retrospect you are quite right - the latest DNA evidence from ancient Irish burial sites indicates that true "Celts" may never have reached the British Isles.  Groups we have been calling "Celts" (e.g. the Irish and Gaelic-speaking Scots) may very well just be "Britons" (much like the Welsh and Scots) after all, and may be more closely related to the Basques than the Celts. 

https://owlcation.com/stem/Irish-Blood-Genetic-Identity

Offline CaptainBigglesmay

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Re: Breton and Franks at Hastings
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2019, 12:31:12 AM »
There was probably no difference in appearance between Bretons and Normans in the 11th century. Norman fashion in weapons shields armour and clothing etc. was overwhelming in the whole area which now is north-west France.

The difference was more in tactics. Breton cavalry was renowned in the 9th century to avoid contact, fight with javelins and use feigned flight. There was probably still some remembrance of this at Hastings.

So how would you look to model this? Lighter armed troops with javelins rather than lances?

 Still interested in the merc angle of Sicilian and Eastern Roman Norman's

Offline Patrice

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Re: Breton and Franks at Hastings
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2019, 01:02:41 PM »
So how would you look to model this? Lighter armed troops with javelins rather than lances?

Breton knights would look very much like Norman knights although they should be allowed to throw their spear rather than coming to contact. The Bayeux Tapestry shows spears flying overhead from both sides, some coming from the attacking cavalry. I would not give them short javelins however, unless you really want to make a visual difference.

A difference (if your rules allow mixed units) could be Breton retainers in lighter clothing following their knights and themselves armed with javelins or light spears too, whereas retainers of rich Norman and Frankish knights could be better protected and unwilling to throw their main weapon.

Also Ian Heath opinion in "Armies of the Dark Ages 600-1066": (page 114) "11th century Norman, French or Breton heavy cavalrymen (...) The spear was either couched as a lance, used overarm as a thrusting spear, or hurled as a javelin, especially by Bretons, in which case more than one may have been carried".
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 06:48:49 PM by Patrice »

Offline janner

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Re: Breton and Franks at Hastings
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2019, 02:26:39 AM »
Janner,  in retrospect you are quite right.

The High Middle Ages are my professional area of research, but the rise of 'Celtic' nationalism in Medieval Studies (and especially Literature) has required me to stretch myself further back.

There's a lot of nonsense being spread about 'Celts' by people who should know better.

Regards,