WW2 AFV sillyness in pop culture

[JamesValentine]

MOD EDIT: This is a split-off from the M10/M4 topic to focus on the various sillyness that abounds in pop culture interpretations of WW2, as in 1:Egg caricature tanks, World of Tanks and related computer games et al.

[Andrew_McGuire]

And I always assumed it was because some unknown visionary foresaw the advent of the plastic kit, and its adherents' insatiable demand for more and more variants, however impractical, short-sighted, or downright useless the actual vehicle / weapon system might be. Not even he, however, could have foreseen that the unending efforts of kit manufacturers would be insufficient to feed this need, and that kits of prototypes, paper designs of proposed upgrades and 'super tanks', rejects and and outright doodles, would all appear in due course, to say nothing of the chibi and kawaii off-shoots that we all now take for granted. This unknown hero demands a kit his own in tribute.

[FramFramson]

And I always assumed it was because some unknown visionary foresaw the advent of the plastic kit, and its adherents' insatiable demand for more and more variants, however impractical, short-sighted, or downright useless the actual vehicle / weapon system might be. Not even he, however, could have foreseen that the unending efforts of kit manufacturers would be insufficient to feed this need, and that kits of prototypes, paper designs of proposed upgrades and 'super tanks', rejects and and outright doodles, would all appear in due course, to say nothing of the chibi and kawaii off-shoots that we all now take for granted. This unknown hero demands a kit his own in tribute.

As a World of Tanks player, this comedy is taken to heights (lows?) you can't possibly imagine - well, unless you play the silly thing as well.

Never mind absurd and impossible monstrosities like the Japanese siege tanks using naval guns, recently they went so far as to introduce a Russian scout tank (the Russian bias is comically real in this game, believe me), with a higher gun depression than is physically possible even in the in-game model, as there's literally no accounting for any of the breech mechanism at all.

Sure, it's an arcade-style game rather than a serious simulator, but that was a new low for any flimsy attempts at accuracy.

[FramFramson]

British tank development shows how easily these cul-de-sacs can be made with (initially) good intentions, which are then carried on through short-term need over longer-term wisdom (perhaps a little harsh, hindsight makes a genius of us all), changing requirements on the battlefield and, most frustrating of all, contractural arm-locks, industrial inflexibility or personal pet projects.

Not that incompetent WWII tank develop is a major source of annoyance in my life ( ), but few things in WWII tank development annoy me as much as the squared-off, pure-vertical, riveted turrets of the Cromwell tank. WHY, YOU FOOLS, WHY. YOU EVEN HAD PROPER SLOPED TURRETS ON THE CRUSADER. WHYYYYYYYY.

[Ultravanillasmurf]

Not that incompetent WWII tank develop is a major source of annoyance in my life ( ), but few things in WWII tank development annoy me as much as the squared-off, pure-vertical, riveted turrets of the Cromwell tank. WHY, YOU FOOLS, WHY. YOU EVEN HAD PROPER SLOPED TURRETS ON THE CRUSADER. WHYYYYYYYY.

There are a whole bunch of WTF designs in WW2, however...

You go with what you can get. The UK did not have the capacity to cast the required turrets until later (Comet), nor the capacity to weld sufficiently large and thick armoured plates such that they would not spring apart under impact (a major concern with the contemporary Churchill turrets).

The Cromwell turret is not riveted, the plates are bolted to a frame with an armed cover (boss) over the bolts. Similar to the appliqué mounting points on the M10 (except it is most if not all the armour).

Have you seen the height comparison photograph of an A30 Challenger and an M4 Sherman? If you want "squared-off, pure-vertical", the M4 takes the biscuit and dunks it in your tea for you ^__^.

By the way, how many crew were there in a Crusader turret? When armed with a real gun, the answer was two.

Copying is the sincerest form of flattery - have a look at the original Leopard II.

By Bundesarchiv, B 145 Bild-F073468-0019 / Arne Schambeck / CC-BY-SA 3.0, CC BY-SA 3.0 de

^__^

[Doug ex-em4]

Just popping in to say what an interesting topic. I can’t add anything to the discussion but I’m enjoying it immensely.

Doug

[Andrew_McGuire]

As a World of Tanks player, this comedy is taken to heights (lows?) you can't possibly imagine - well, unless you play the silly thing as well.

Never mind absurd and impossible monstrosities like the Japanese siege tanks using naval guns, recently they went so far as to introduce a Russian scout tank (the Russian bias is comically real in this game, believe me), with a higher gun depression than is physically possible even in the in-game model, as there's literally no accounting for any of the breech mechanism at all.

Sure, it's an arcade-style game rather than a serious simulator, but that was a new low for any flimsy attempts at accuracy.

My ideas were clearly even less well developed than I thought, putting me on a par with some of the tank design teams who are attracting such scorn. World of Tanks hadn't even occurred to me, possibly because I've never played it, but I have less excuse for failing to mention the likes of Maschinenkrieger, Dust ' Walkers', and Panzer-inspired mecha, which only came to mind afterwards, even though I own a few of them. Furthermore, I only discovered the spherical tank concept a few months ago - via a review of a plastic kit, which I initially assumed to be pure whimsy on the part of the manufacturer - at which point I should have realised that tank design is just one of those subjects I cannot hope to understand. I hereby announce my retirement from any form of technology-related discussion.

[FramFramson]

My ideas were clearly even less well developed than I thought, putting me on a par with some of the tank design teams who are attracting such scorn. World of Tanks hadn't even occurred to me, possibly because I've never played it, but I have less excuse for failing to mention the likes of Maschinenkrieger, Dust ' Walkers', and Panzer-inspired mecha, which only came to mind afterwards, even though I own a few of them. Furthermore, I only discovered the spherical tank concept a few months ago - via a review of a plastic kit, which I initially assumed to be pure whimsy on the part of the manufacturer - at which point I should have realised that tank design is just one of those subjects I cannot hope to understand. I hereby announce my retirement from any form of technology-related discussion.

Hold up on that - given those goons are all making money on their comedically imaginary tanks, there's clearly room for all sorts of ideas.

[FramFramson]

There are a whole bunch of WTF designs in WW2, however...

You go with what you can get. The UK did not have the capacity to cast the required turrets until later (Comet), nor the capacity to weld sufficiently large and thick armoured plates such that they would not spring apart under impact (a major concern with the contemporary Churchill turrets).

The Cromwell turret is not riveted, the plates are bolted to a frame with an armed cover (boss) over the bolts. Similar to the appliqué mounting points on the M10 (except it is most if not all the armour).

Have you seen the height comparison photograph of an A30 Challenger and an M4 Sherman? If you want "squared-off, pure-vertical", the M4 takes the biscuit and dunks it in your tea for you ^__^.

By the way, how many crew were there in a Crusader turret? When armed with a real gun, the answer was two.

Copying is the sincerest form of flattery - have a look at the original Leopard II.

By Bundesarchiv, B 145 Bild-F073468-0019 / Arne Schambeck / CC-BY-SA 3.0, CC BY-SA 3.0 de

^__^

Oh, those are bosses. Ha! I feel like a dummy now. 

I do feel like the Comet wasn't much of an improvement in this regard, but I suppose most of the front on that is the gun mantlet anyway.

The Sherman's weaknesses are of course well-known. Like the Lee/Grant, it could have used a lift elevator between the cupola and floor... probably could have even fit an operator with a little red uniform and pillbox hat in there as the sixth crew. "Going up?". 

And yes, there's unlimited wackiness in WWII designs. the Archer! The KV2! I could go on...

[Ultravanillasmurf]

Oh, those are bosses. Ha! I feel like a dummy now. 

The designer of the turret went on to work for the BBC.

^__^
Of course though the turret was not riveted, some of the hulls were.

[Ultravanillasmurf]

The Soviet vehicle interest in WoT is probably geographical.

In the Gavin Lyall novel "Uncle Target" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Target) at one point the British manage to get some air support from some US Stealth fighters. There is a lot of concern about anyone photographing them. This is not because the photographs could be sold to the Soviets, but to Japanese plastic kit manufacturers.

At the time it came out, I counted six different "stealth fighter" model designs in Beatties model shop in Holborn (allegedly US and Soviet).

[Andrew_McGuire]

The Soviet vehicle interest in WoT is probably geographical.

In the Gavin Lyall novel "Uncle Target" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Target) at one point the British manage to get some air support from some US Stealth fighters. There is a lot of concern about anyone photographing them. This is not because the photographs could be sold to the Soviets, but to Japanese plastic kit manufacturers.

At the time it came out, I counted six different "stealth fighter" model designs in Beatties model shop in Holborn (allegedly US and Soviet).

Published in 1988 I see, and spot on in its observation for the period, but nowadays it would be the Chinese who would be the greater concern. As, almost certainly, nobody, including dedicated task forces inside CIA and SIS, knows how many Chinese kit manufacturers there currently are, furthermore, defence against their intel gathering, let alone their collusion with the Hello Kitty - Industrial Complex, is almost impossible. Truly, we live in dangerous times.

[Arrigo]

not sure if the last comments was supposed to be taken seriously...

[Andrew_McGuire]

Well, it's every bit as serious as this:



(With apologies to photo copyright holder.)

However, on reflection, perhaps this all belongs in another thread.

[Arrigo]

Well, it's every bit as serious as this:



(With apologies to photo copyright holder.)

However, on reflection, perhaps this all belongs in another thread.

fully agree on both counts... but the lady tank commander is soooo cute.... and the Tiger is more accurate than the one they show in the last BF game (with a turret bigger than a bedroom...)