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Author Topic: Army Painter Warpaints - are they all this bad?  (Read 10322 times)

Offline Captain Blood

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Re: Army Painter Warpaints - are they all this bad?
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2019, 08:05:41 PM »
It’s surprising how many brands of paint supposedly formulated expressly for painting wargames figures have those unlovely properties of ‘thin and tending to shininess’...  ::)

I mean really, how hard can it be?

The only brands to date I have found to be reliably opaque and flat matt with a nice consistency are Vallejo (apart from a couple of rogue bottles out of, probably, well over 100), Citadel, and AK interactive. Plus my favourite, long discontinued craft paints, Inscribe...

All the rest, including several well known brands apparently favoured by several well known painters, I have found subject to the thin and shiny problem...  :-[

Offline Ogrob

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Re: Army Painter Warpaints - are they all this bad?
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2019, 08:09:56 PM »
I've been using Scale75 for a while now, and while their metals are amazing I think I will go back to Vallejo. While matte, the Scale75s have terrible tooth and chip even when varnished and they split horribly in the bottles and take tons and tons of shaking.

In short, I agree with the Captain's point above.

Offline Bloggard

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Re: Army Painter Warpaints - are they all this bad?
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2019, 01:05:50 PM »
'tending to shinyness' is prob. being a bit kind - particulary as multiple coats are needed (certainly if you don't use a white undercoat anyway) ... but it does depend on the colour (I'm talking about current foundry paints again here - apologies, I know this is 'diluting'  ::) things further ... )

With these foundry paints it's interesting - as they're the perfect consistency out of the pot (i.e. don't need thinning) - and maybe that's what they intend - that'll you be doing more than one 'thin' coat (which I think is the Dallimore mantra iirc).
On that score Captain Blood I am intrigued by your approach - your superb results are the envy of many on these boards, that's beyond question, and yet I thought the received wisdom is indeed 'thin coats' - which I've only accepted relatively recently myself after years of brush-destroying use of undiluted paint ...

However, back to the paints (foundry) themselves - and the difference qualitatively speaking is that, with GW/Citadel paints for example, you can thin them (using lahmian medium) and the pigmentation / opaqueness remains very good  - considerably better than Foundry out of the pot by and large.
Also - as mentioned, Foundry paints can be glossy, while the lahmian medium helps to matt down the Citadel paints ....

anyhow that new italeri range looks interesting ... yet more paints ... dare I ... ?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 09:22:14 AM by Bloggard »

Offline Captain Blood

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Re: Army Painter Warpaints - are they all this bad?
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2019, 07:41:12 PM »
Thanks Bloggard. I do indeed use thin coats when it comes to building up highlight layers - but I still want a good degree of opacity, even from a thinned layer. That's then down to me to control the opacity - not down to the paint being incapable of providing the advertised coverage. And I certainly want my base coat to be solid and matt - not thin, translucent, shiny glop!
I appreciate that some painters enjoy the whole pseudo-alchemy of flow adjusters, matting agents, drying retardents, mediums, agitators and additives. Personally - old-fashioned I know - I like to be able to use paint as it comes, and not unreasonably expect it to be fit for purpose. If I want it thinner I'll add water. That's it.
If I buy a product that's meant to be matt, opaque, and have a smooth consistency suitable for painting miniature figures (with or without adding water to taste), I expect it to do what it says on the tin.
I don't expect to have to add all manner of unguents and solutions to compensate for the inadequacies of the manufacturer when it comes to formulating a product that's fit for purpose and lives up to the description on the bottle.
Sorry to sound so grumpy about this, but it's really piss-poor that so many miniatures paints are patently not fit for purpose. Many wargamers seem happy to just make allowances... They shouldn't have to.

Offline Dags

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Re: Army Painter Warpaints - are they all this bad?
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2019, 07:53:30 PM »
I've been using Scale75 for a while now, and while their metals are amazing I think I will go back to Vallejo. While matte, the Scale75s have terrible tooth and chip even when varnished and they split horribly in the bottles and take tons and tons of shaking.

Sorry to go off the original topic but if I was starting from scratch I'd use Scale 75 exclusively. Absolutely love them. They do take a bit of getting used to, for sure but once you have they're brilliant :)

Horses for courses, I suppose

Offline vexillia

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Re: Army Painter Warpaints - are they all this bad?
« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2019, 08:50:20 PM »
Given the way the thread has developed this may be of interest - https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2014/05/painting-tips-5c-matting-acrylics-with.html
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 08:51:56 PM by vexillia »

Offline Codsticker

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Re: Army Painter Warpaints - are they all this bad?
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2019, 06:54:00 AM »
Sorry to go off the original topic but if I was starting from scratch I'd use Scale 75 exclusively. Absolutely love them. They do take a bit of getting used to, for sure but once you have they're brilliant :)

Horses for courses, I suppose
I don't know if I would use them exclusively but I really like them too. I haven't experienced the problems that Ogrob mentioned, yet.

Offline ced1106

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Re: Army Painter Warpaints - are they all this bad?
« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2019, 07:58:16 AM »
Late reply, but here's
AP Leather Brown and its brown Strong Tone wash,
AP Necrotic Flesh and Green Tone wash,
AP Berserker Red with purple Toxic Shader wash (from the Zombicide set), and
AP Daemonic Yellow with brown Soft Tone wash and Red Tone wash.









« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 08:00:07 AM by ced1106 »
Crimson Scales with Wildspire Miniatures thread on Reaper!
https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/103935-wildspire-miniatures-thread/

Offline Captain Blood

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Re: Army Painter Warpaints - are they all this bad?
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2019, 08:06:58 AM »
Sorry to go off the original topic but if I was starting from scratch I'd use Scale 75 exclusively. Absolutely love them. They do take a bit of getting used to, for sure but once you have they're brilliant :)

Thanks Jon. I've never come across them, will look out for them and give them a try.

While matte, the Scale75s have terrible tooth and chip

Ogrob, when you say 'tooth and chip', can you describe what you mean? Thanks.

Offline Bloggard

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Re: Army Painter Warpaints - are they all this bad?
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2019, 09:18:30 AM »
Given the way the thread has developed this may be of interest - https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2014/05/painting-tips-5c-matting-acrylics-with.html

yep, saw that link in the windsor and newton matt varnish thread - brilliant info / research - but I think the point is that what you're finding you have to do is just way too exacting and time-consuming for most of us wanting to enjoy this hobby. And it's quite possible that ultimately 'most of us' are being unreasonable if that's the case, given the reality of how paints 'work' (certain parts of the spectrum as opposed to the other areas, as you mention etc) - I can see that.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 09:37:40 AM by Bloggard »

Offline Bloggard

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Re: Army Painter Warpaints - are they all this bad?
« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2019, 09:28:20 AM »
Thanks Bloggard. I do indeed use thin coats when it comes to building up highlight layers - but I still want a good degree of opacity, even from a thinned layer. That's then down to me to control the opacity - not down to the paint being incapable of providing the advertised coverage. And I certainly want my base coat to be solid and matt - not thin, translucent, shiny glop!
I appreciate that some painters enjoy the whole pseudo-alchemy of flow adjusters, matting agents, drying retardents, mediums, agitators and additives. Personally - old-fashioned I know - I like to be able to use paint as it comes, and not unreasonably expect it to be fit for purpose. If I want it thinner I'll add water. That's it.
If I buy a product that's meant to be matt, opaque, and have a smooth consistency suitable for painting miniature figures (with or without adding water to taste), I expect it to do what it says on the tin.
I don't expect to have to add all manner of unguents and solutions to compensate for the inadequacies of the manufacturer when it comes to formulating a product that's fit for purpose and lives up to the description on the bottle.
Sorry to sound so grumpy about this, but it's really piss-poor that so many miniatures paints are patently not fit for purpose. Many wargamers seem happy to just make allowances... They shouldn't have to.

ah right, I see Captain.

still a bit surprised tho' - as I've found (reluctantly) that I have to thin citadel and vallejo (i.e. good paints) even for the base, or it doesn't go on smoothly (i.e. too thick) - and wrecks brushes.

just shows - with different approaches and techniques proliferating it's pretty difficult to reach a consensus as to what constitutes (excuse me again!) good paint to begin with - although I don't think any of us can disagree with thin, translucent, shiny glop being crap.

think I've gone wrong in investing so heavily in just about every range of paints apart from Vallejo MC (I've got a fair number of GC which might not be same constitution). Damn pain, as I certainly  can't afford to do so now.
can't help but feel the Foundry bulk order appears to have been a bad mistake...  :(   and obviously am not encouraged to try AP, Dallimore or not!
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 10:38:27 AM by Bloggard »

Offline Keith

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Re: Army Painter Warpaints - are they all this bad?
« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2019, 09:40:42 AM »
FWIW my comments on AP paints are limited only to the colours I've used so far.
Totally behind the good Captain's comments regarding his experiences with these (and I also prefer to work without 'ungents' and additives :-) ).

Still need to try Scale75 myself having heard largely good things. A few years ago I invested in a large set of Reaper paints becuase a lot of my favourite painters at the time swore by them. Have also found them very binary - some colours are excellent but a few are unusable, at least by me.

I still default to Vallejo (Game and Model colour), Coat Des Arms (sp), Foundry (the older colours at least - WW2 colours didn't impress), GW (pretty consistent even if the pots are really horrible) and artists acrylics. Some of the ranges that I think are also produced in the Vallejo factory (Mig and Ammo) seem to have quite strange properties. Ammo have a really high pigment density so you can thin them to quite an extreme ammount but are quite grainy and I struggle with them.

One advantage I've found living in Germany are the huge number of local craft and hobby products available. I use a lot of spray paint rattle cans and have switched almost entirely to local brands that I can't pronounce :-). Coverage, colour and finish are exceptional.
An infrequent Blog http://small-wars.com

Offline Ogrob

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Re: Army Painter Warpaints - are they all this bad?
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2019, 05:35:39 PM »
Thanks Jon. I've never come across them, will look out for them and give them a try.

Ogrob, when you say 'tooth and chip', can you describe what you mean? Thanks.

Even on a well primered, washed surface, and after a coat of matte varnish, I find that the Scale75 rubs off really easily with normal handling. Like the paint doesn't grip into the primer at all, but just dries on the surface. Compared to P3 and Vallejo it's been way more vulnerable to daily handling.

This is just the opaque colours, not the metallics. The metallics I would recommend over anything else I have ever used, they are utterly brilliant.

Offline Codsticker

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Re: Army Painter Warpaints - are they all this bad?
« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2019, 06:48:13 AM »
Even on a well primered, washed surface, and after a coat of matte varnish, I find that the Scale75 rubs off really easily with normal handling. Like the paint doesn't grip into the primer at all, but just dries on the surface. Compared to P3 and Vallejo it's been way more vulnerable to daily handling.
I will have to keep an eye out for that. I bought the green set and have been very pleased so far; I plan to buy a couple more sets.

Andrew_McGuire

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Re: Army Painter Warpaints - are they all this bad?
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2019, 05:18:47 PM »
How very confusing. I'm afraid I can add nothing to dispel the fog, or enrich the pigment, for that matter.

A couple of points which may be worth following up:

I can't find any sign of Italeri acrylic paints being available in the UK, other than some small pots with aircraft kits. They're not that new, but don't appear to have a UK distributor. As for eBay....don't bother.

Scale 75 have just announced a new range called Scalecolor Artist. More details on their Facebook page, apparently.