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Author Topic: Aztec army  (Read 29784 times)

Offline Huron34

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Re: Aztec army
« Reply #75 on: March 31, 2019, 07:29:41 PM »
Hello gentlemens,
Here is a jaguar warrior according to the codex Mendoza. Apart from the Matricula de Tributos, I have not found a jaguar warrior, in action in the codex, with a color outfit!
And in the text???????

But, the Matricula de Tributos, it shows skin jaguar outfit, with coloured  bundle feathers and shield, according to the outfits that accompagny it (no quetzal feather)!

exemple: tribute of th city of.... yellow Cuextecatl outfit, feather yellow and shield two for the jaguar warrior!
Same in blue.
Perhaps, on the battlefield it was so?

Quetzal feather only for the higth noble on the battlefield?

What do you think ?

Offline cdm

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Re: Aztec army
« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2019, 11:09:00 AM »
I don't recall the source (Duran?), but the feather bundles to the head were signs of exceptional feats on the battlefield. They were called eagle feather bundles, or something close to that. Whether the translation misses the nuance of bundles of eagle feathers, or bundles of feathers of the eagle (ranked warriors), it's not clear. In theory the commentary mentions them around the levels of eagle warriors and above. I vaguely recall the text talks about 1 or sometimes two bundles for doing more exceptional feats. That's from memory.

Hello gentlemens,
Here is a jaguar warrior according to the codex Mendoza. Apart from the Matricula de Tributos, I have not found a jaguar warrior, in action in the codex, with a color outfit!
And in the text???????

But, the Matricula de Tributos, it shows skin jaguar outfit, with coloured  bundle feathers and shield, according to the outfits that accompagny it (no quetzal feather)!

exemple: tribute of th city of.... yellow Cuextecatl outfit, feather yellow and shield two for the jaguar warrior!
Same in blue.
Perhaps, on the battlefield it was so?

Quetzal feather only for the higth noble on the battlefield?

What do you think ?

Offline cdm

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  • Posts: 349
Re: Aztec army
« Reply #77 on: April 03, 2019, 12:54:33 PM »
I have bits of Tlaxcalan information, but I've not put it all together.

Camaxtli is their chief god, and their direct ancestor. He is also the god of Huexotzinco. He is commonly known as the god of the hunt, and his priests teach the skill of hunting, among other things. Duran draws and describes him with black face paint and white striped body paint. This imagery is also the same imagery used for warriors captured by the Aztecs that were sacrificed to the sun. There is a whole bunch of symbology etc that goes along with this, as well as a story of the Aztecs trying to steal this god's effigy from the Huexotzincas. (They loved collecting conquered people's god effigies from their temples that were then kept in a specific place in Tenochtitlan)

The Historia de Tlaxcala, in discussing military topics, is very generic and broad based across all of the various tribal groups, instead of speaking specifically of the Tlaxcalans. It says this:

And some of the greater lords, of the Mexicans and Acolhuaques and Tlaxcaltecas, were using quilted cotton coats which were tied up with strips of leather. They wore emblems of fierce animals: tigers(jaguars); lions(pumas); bears; wolves(coyotes); 'royal' eagles, all made with gold and rich and valuable green feathers which were greatly prized. All of the carving and construction for the emblems were done with skill and precious materials. They also wore golden jewellery and valuable featherwork and other valuable items.

By the late Aztec period the Tlaxcalans were formed of 4 major provinces in a confederation:
Tepecticpac (quaxalotl banner as their province banner)
Quiahuiztlan (sun banner as their province banner)
Tizatlan (white heron as their province banner)
Ocotelolco (green quetzal as their province banner)

The Historia gives this abridged version earlier in the Tlaxcalan history:
The principal emblem and arms of the house of Ocotelolco of the Maxixcatzis is a heron, or a green bird called a Quetzaltototl, standing on a large rock. The bird seems to have green feathers, a golden beak, and at the junction of the wings two patens of round gold and on the tail another one. The emblem and arms of the cabecera of Quiahuiztlan is a frame of green feathers in the manner of a wing or winnow. This is what they had as an emblem and arms for the Lords of this cabecera, and today they esteem it very much and call it Quetzalpatzactli. The cabecera of Tepeticpac has a very fierce wolf on a rock [hill] as their arms and emblem (the quaxalotl banner), and who holds in his hand a bow and arrows. They do not pay heed to any other arms and emblems as there were so many different ones in use according to their ancient customs.

Having said that, as per the aztecs, these provinces had subject peoples who had their own banners (i.e otomi inside the province had their own thing going on) and who came along as subject/allied warriors in their own separate groupings/formations.

This very rough translation from the Historia may help enlighten people about the role of nobles vs commoners in terms of war (this equally applies to the Tenochs, who firmly banned commoners from war):

After the cruel war of the Chichimecs of Texcalticpac, as earlier said, they began to descend from there and to found towns and places. They founded the cabeceras of Ocotelolco, and the of Tizatlan and Quiahuiztlan. It should be understood that there were not only four lords who came from this Republic, because in the same way there were populated many towns and places of other principal Chichimecs that had been leaders in their journey there, or captains, field marshals/generals and other occupations and corresponding responsibilities in the army. From which today there are founded many houses [lineages] with very good entailed estates and ancient homes. The ones that were recognised as the major houses then became the subsequent lineages, such as the one founded in cabacera of Tepeticpac, that they were attend to and recognised and respected by the King, and the same thing was done in the cabecera of Ocotelolco, Tizatlan and Quiahuiztlan. Of these houses and cabeceras, there were also many other Tecuhtlis (lords) with entailed estates, which is to to say knights and lords, and other houses which are called Pileales [Pilli] which means those of an ancestral principal noble’s house/lineage and which had particular considerations, because the descendants of these lineages were considered as qualified men. Although they may be poor people they did not exercise mechanical [mundane] occupations or low and vile dealings/work.

They were never allowed to carry loads [as bearers] nor to dig with coas [farming implement] or plows because they were said to be noblemen and they were not meant to do these things. The same applied to their descendants. They were instead to serve in war and on the frontiers and be like noblemen [hidalgos] and to die as fighting men which is an insane virtue and still persists today. They say they are nobles and knights [hidalgos and caballeros] from the beginning [of time] and that they are now better because they have turned and become Christians and converted to the true God, giving their obedience to the emporer Don Carlos, king of Castile. Besides this they were on his side and they helped him win and conquor all things around this New World. Granted the right and action that they were due from having fought against the Mexicans, in order that he [Don Carlos] becomes the universal king and lord of them, and for this reason they are noblemen and knights [hidalgos and caballeros]. They say these things with much boasting and folly that they never stop bragging about and thus when a bad Spaniard hurts them they tell him he is a bad christian and that he is not noble or gentlemanly and he must therefore be a villain, Moorish or Jewish or Biscayan, and as the final word they find other words with which to insult him and finish by saying that he is Portugese thinking they have said a great insult to him.

The use of suits in a similar manner to the Aztecs such as ranks is not known. Some banners and styles are common, such as eagles, coyotes, jaguars, etc some may not be because of who the Aztecs absorbed their symbology from. Some suits and styles are clearly god specific, and as the Tlaxcalans didn't follow these gods, those suits/shield patterns seem unsuitable.

If you check the Lienzo, the figures with a red and white headband should be suitable to pick for a tlaxcalan force, if that band isn't present, it may not be Tlaxcalan or their sundry allies/subject people. For example some warriors standing next to the Spanish may be Aztecs depending on the image you're looking at.

If you want to pick a hero figure, one of the holy symbols was a set of arrows specially prepared. If the first arrow hit somebody, victory was assured (I think that was how the story goes roughly from memory)

Sorry it's not all that useful, but that's about the snippets you're going to collect to try and build a force of some kind that is distinctly different to the Tenochs, Acolhua etc

This maybe a little off topic, but I can see you all are very keen on aztecs.
Aztecs and Tlaxcans are two of my best loved DBA armies I painted.
I read a lot (same sources you used in this thread) before painting them.

I would like to paint some Tlaxcans in 28mm for a large skirmish game projects, like: SAGA, OGAM, etc.
Could you address me to some book specifically about Tlaxcan culture: gods, war suits, heraldry, tactics, etc...?

I.E: I could imagine war suits assignation system could be simila to aztecs? Or not?
Any contents in english, french, spanish, italian... will be appreciated
Ciao

PS: my 15mm DBA armies:
http://www.dba-italia.org/modellismo/simoncini/4-19-tlaxcans.php
http://www.dba-italia.org/modellismo/simoncini/4-63-aztecs.php

Offline pws

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Re: Aztec army
« Reply #78 on: April 03, 2019, 05:14:58 PM »
I have bits of Tlaxcalan information, but I've not put it all together.
.............

I'll start reading it friday, on the Flight to: SALUTE!  :-*

THANK YOU
Per aspera ad astra
pippoweb.blogspot.it

Offline Huron34

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Re: Aztec army
« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2019, 04:31:58 PM »
Here are Cuachiqueh:

Codex Mendoza, banner seen only in the Codex MendozaThe yellow of his suit is checked by the codex Mendoza and Florentine.

Offline Huron34

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Re: Aztec army
« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2019, 04:35:55 PM »
Codex Florentine, with Xopolli,

The feathers are quetzal feathers. But on the codex are parrot feather (yellow)
Many banners do not have quetzal feathers, but yellow or red (parrots)

Maybe for the war, the quetzal feathers are reserved for the nobles

Offline Huron34

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Re: Aztec army
« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2019, 04:38:11 PM »
Florentne Codex, with Patzactli. Here the second form of Patzactli. Colors are optional.

Offline Huron34

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Re: Aztec army
« Reply #82 on: April 09, 2019, 04:33:48 PM »
I'm looking for information on the suit of Auitzol dressed on quetzal owl suit?

This is quetzaltecolot and owl aztec:

Offline Huron34

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Re: Aztec army
« Reply #83 on: April 14, 2019, 06:05:02 PM »
Here warrior from the codex Cozcotzin.

The outfit is two-tone red and blue.

Offline Huron34

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Re: Aztec army
« Reply #84 on: April 14, 2019, 06:07:05 PM »
This one Cuextecatl of codex Moctezuma.
I think we can say that it existed among Tenochtitlan, a squadron that was two-tone red and blue!

Offline cdm

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Re: Aztec army
« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2019, 03:21:39 PM »
Rather than put these notes in a PM and have them lost forever, I thought I'd reply them into your post so that someone else randomly searching the net might find a couple bits semi useful. You asked some good questions so I got out my old books and had a read.

The short summary for your purposes is that if you want to paint the QueztalTeculotl all green because it says quetzal, go for it if it makes you happiest. In a wargaming context, nobody but extremely well read gamers are going to have a clue what it's about anyway. It was definitely used once, for part of one day, by a person who was given it to wear, acting as a hero in a skirmish situation accompanied only by 4 other warriors, who then is never mentioned again. The assumption is that he is dead because his name is not further recounted in the lists of brave warriors, and Cuauhtemoc also said that he would die in it. The Nahua text says he neither died, nor was he captured, and implies that he just vanished. Following this incident there are several days of non combat, then Cuauhtemoc flees and is captured. This warrior's skirmishing is the last combat of the war in Sahagun's text.

Did the original owner Ahuitzotl ever wear it himself when he was alive, outside of ceremony? We'll never know.

This suit is truly obscure, and only applicable obviously for a hero figure, and not in a formation of warriors you'd encounter any old time. You questioned whether it is a full suit version, or skirted version. Two things, every illustration of a bird outfitted figure in the Tenoch illustrations I have seen have all been full body suits, secondly, these illustrations always reproduce the original colour of that particular bird. Artistic stylisation or artistic accuracy? Maybe either way. Surely if jaguars can be reproduced in green feathers, then why not perhaps an eagle or teculotl if your imagination wants to lean that way. The only owl suit I recall illustrated is also by Sahagun in the Primeros, in the illustration for the Atamalcualiztli ceremony. Obviously that is a full body suit with natural colours.

I'm looking for information on the suit of Auitzol dressed on quetzal owl suit?

This is quetzaltecolot and owl aztec:

Anyway, onto nerdy notes and bits of thought. Sorry these are a bit mixed up, I added to them over a week or so and haven't gone back to straighten them up into a more coherent narrative:

There are 4 mentions of the QuetzalTeculotl in book 12 of the Florentine, all in chapter 38, in 3 consecutive paragraphs. I had to go back and dig out my codices to look specifically at the original Nahua and Spanish text. The name is written the same in both the Spanish and Nahua texts, and the Spanish commentary doesn't give any extra clues to what is going on. Chapter 38 doesn't have any illustrations either :( Interestingly the same paragraph that first mentions QuetzalTeculotl also has near its end the word tlacateculotl, yet Dibble & Anderson do not translate this as owl person but simply as devil/demon, which is what it is called also in Spanish. So what I'm saying is QueztalTeculotl is the word in both Spanish and Nahua texts, but the word TlacaTeculotl is written in Nahua, but in Spanish is written as demonio. Curious. The only clue you get to anything specific about the suit is in the Nahua it says that the quetzalli feathers go spreading. Quetzalli are specifically the long tail feathers of the quetzal bird, and are the long plumes used in shield borders, warrior sapote skirt lower hems, the long tail feather bundles on war suit helms or the long feathers on the back of a quetzal pamitl.

I don't recall the suit mentioned anywhere else, or even this particular incident mentioned in any other conquest accounts.

As you noted, Sahagun mentions this suit was one of the war suits of the former king Ahuitzol. He had at least 2 other suits from memory.

The interesting part of the story is the fact that this suit was even used in this conquest episode, for two reasons.

Firstly, by this stage of the conflict, the remaining Tenochs had fled to Tlatelolco. So clearly they had taken this suit of Ahuitzotl's from storage and carried it with them (ancestor veneration, one of the histories talks about keeping these things.) It would seem perfectly natural for Cauahtemoc to take his dad's suit as a personal treasure. This also indicates that they had also taken at least some of the other treasures of Ahuitzotl (if not also that of other former kings and the empire in general.)

Secondly, by this stage of the war, the numbers of skilled warriors must have been quite low as the military defences crumbled and some fled, many were killed, and the allied warriors from other towns defected to the apparent winning side. Seeking a way to inspire the remaining Tenoch/Tlatelolcan warriors, and to scare the opponents, they hit upon the idea of putting the suit of Ahuitzotl on a deserving warrior. They settled upon a warrior named (or titled) Tlapaltecatl Opochtzin (perhaps translated as the hunting lord from/of the house of many colours, and it should be noted one of the first founding lords of Tlatelolco was named Opochtli so perhaps he is a direct descendant of this lineage). He came from the barrio (or calpulli) called Coatlan, which the Spanish text clarifies as the barrio in Tlatelolco near the laperrocha (some type of rock/hill thing, my poor skills put it as a flat topped rocky hill rather than a dog??) called Santa Catalina in post conquest times. Therefore, this warrior is from a different but closely related tribe to the Tenochs, the Tlatelolcans. So to really break down all kinds of taboos, they put the sacred, personalised suit of a dead king onto a warrior from a different tribe who was also of a lower social class.

Stepping back to look at the Nahua part words, they are quetzal and teculot.

Your original contention is that quetzal means composed all of quetzal feathers, but I have not seen any translation of the adjective quetzal come to this conclusion. Various translations put quetzal at rich/precious, princely/royal, or iridescent depending on the context. Generally it is simply translated as precious.

A couple examples of the word in use for context, paraphrased from Florentine book 11:
QuetzalTotol which is the quetzal trogon, or more commonly the resplendent trogon. The feathers are described as iridescent, which D&A translate as glistening. These are the feathers we talk of/imagine when queztal is mentioned. The tail feathers are specifically referred to as quetzalli and often talk of featherwork refers specifically to quetzalli feathers. This includes the sapote skirts in warsuits and the feather fringes to shields. I've always imagined them as a nice mid green, the translations call it chilli green, but while staring at pictures of resplendent quetzals I noticed paintings always show them green but photos show them as a more turquoise blue/green. It appears as though this blue/green shift is the iridescence, and observing the banner given to Cortez that is now in Vienna, the colours of the queztalli feathers used are for sure iridescent and shift between beautiful greens and blues. Probably way more technical than someone painting toy soldiers needs to get to.
Quetzalatzcalli which roughly translates as quetzal shell - the shell which is rough and rotted bone like on the outside, but on the inside shimmers with colours of red and blue and green and yellow etc (i.e. iridescent/pearly like a like a rainbow) I believe it's a species of oyster
QuetzalHuitzilin which roughly translates as quetzal hummingbird, which is the broad tailed hummingbird, and is described with an iridescent green back feathers with the rest of the bird in other colours
QuetzalTezolocton which is the green winged teal/duck, described as such in Nahua because the head is ornamented with feathers that are like a quetzal feather. [i.e. they are also iridescent green]Most of the duck though is in other earthier colours.
There are several plants that are also a quetzalxxx, but try as I might I can't imagine any of these plant species having iridescence that would justify the quetzal adjective. Perhaps I'd need to see them in person and I'd get it.

Clearly none of these things are all green, and the quetzal component refers to a specific part or appearance of that item.

Rolling over to the things we're really excited about, war equipment.
Several items are described with a quetzal adjective.
QuetzalPatzactli - usually described not as a banner made of quetzal feathers, but a banner made of varied rich and precious feathers. Clearly including quetzalli as the outside fringe of feathers, but many other feathers also in bands
ichimal QuetzalXicalculiuhqui - usually translated as the quetzal shield with the stepped fret (or marketplace) design. It has no long quetzalli kind of feathers attached to it in the Primeros commentary/illustration, and obviously in this case is half red and half green. The quetzal may refer to the green half, or may refer to it being precious/lordly, which in this context it also is.
QuetzalPapalotl - the quetzal butterfly back banner, or the precious butterfly back banner. The core of it is green, with the fringes and extremities all in yellow. It reminds me of the Malachite butterfly (Siproeta stelenes) It has no special quetzalli feathers on it except the long plumes at the top common to just about all banners, so the quetzal component may refer to the green bit of the butterfly body? Perhaps they are the quetzal tzinitzcan feathers. Or alternately, this is a tlatoani suit, the banner is the princely butterfly if the quetzal word is translated that way rather than as green
QuetzalCuexyo quetzal huaxtec shield. Illustrated in the Primeros, it is however drawn in red rather than green. It is hard to determine why this shield would have quetzal attached to it as a description, except perhaps one band of feathers in the middle as green, which may mean that short band is of quetzal feathers, or it's just a translation/typo error in the original nahua writing vs illustration
QuetzalPamitl - quetzal flag banner. The banner is made of quetzalli feathers as the outer line of feathers, and yellow feathers as the base line of feathers
QuetzalQuaquavitl quetzal horn helm. This is mostly of yellow feathers, and has no quetzal feathers aside from a small cup on each side with a spray of quetzalli feathers coming from each cup.
QuetzalTzitzimitl - quetzal demon of the air. typical tzitzimitl with a sprinkling of quetzalli feathers through the hair line.

and so on and so on through items described as quetzal something. Most have a part of quetzal feathers, from a very small amount, to possibly none, to possibly a large portion of it. Even the QuetzalTotol back banner ( the back banner that is literally the quetzal bird, has the natural colours of the quetzal bird with red, blue and greens on it. There are other items in green such as the xolopapalotl which simply translates as the dark yellow butterfly back banner, but which looks extremely similar to the quetzalpapalotl and is drawn in green.

The point is that saying quetzal something does not make something all green, in fact nothing described as quetzal something is all green.

The second part of the name is teculotl. It's usually just translated as owl, but that's not correct enough. The Nahua makes it clearer that it refers specifically to the great horned owl (Buho Cornado), so the shape and markings of this suit should form a reasonable representation of this specific bird. This part of the name is pretty simple. The way the horns are, I would very much lean to those horns being quetzalli most likely the way they are depicted on the quetzalquaquavitli helm. Wings or no wings, claws or no claws? Based on the way eagles are also variously drawn, pick what you like, though I'd guess yes definitely if it's a ceremonial based suit, for a combat based one, maybe not. The stylisation of the suit is still going to come down to a personal opinion of how you feel they did things based on the contradictory and incomplete evidence of other similar bird suits. In some cases anything could be possible, there are ceremonial instances of jaguar suits with bird wings :o though I think that does get backed up by textual evidence also that says a specific warrior wore a combat suit composed of both jaguar and eagle parts.

Offline Huron34

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Re: Aztec army
« Reply #86 on: April 17, 2019, 07:29:45 PM »
Thank you Cdm

It'is very complete. I think made a figure that will have the same feathers as a "Grand Duc" but decorated with quetzal feather on the top of the head.
I think it will come close to reality.


Offline Huron34

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Re: Aztec army
« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2019, 07:33:37 PM »
here is a red coyote warrior, with shield seen on the codex "Lienzo de Tlaxcala" and on a fresco of a church of Tlaxcala (attached to coyote warrior)!

Colors are cojonctural

Offline Huron34

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Re: Aztec army
« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2019, 06:08:34 PM »
The memories of a consquitador speacks of the Xochimilco army:

a white "squadron", but too red blue and black.

We find the black in mexicans (Tenochtitlan) army, but often with red:

Tzitzimitl, captain of army

Offline Huron34

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Re: Aztec army
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2019, 06:12:30 PM »
Fire coyotle:

shield are the same of the black coyotl of the fresco of the church of tlacala country (near mexico today)