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Author Topic: Educate me on Napoleonic cavalry  (Read 4196 times)

Offline Forwardmarchstudio

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Re: Educate me on Napoleonic cavalry
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2019, 06:02:20 AM »
The focus on the differences between the kinds of cavalry is a bit less important than the differences in doctrine.  The individual French cavalry regiments ebbed and flowed in quality over the 20+ years of war from the Revolution to 1815.  But the French cavalry arm was certainly the best of any army in Europe.  The French were the army that put the most effort and training into large scale cavalry maneuvers.  So, while a single French regiment might not be as "good" as an Austrian regiment, a French cavalry division could coordinate better than those of other countries (not always, but usually).  Some armies, like the Austrians, would break their excellent cavalry up into small forces at corps level, which kept them from having a useful army-level cavalry reserve.  As the war went on, French cavalry became worse, especially after 1812 but that's because there was a shortage of good mounts after Russia.  This lack of horses was a major factor in the 1813/1814 campaigns, not so much for the lack of heavy cavalry, but a lack of light cavalry to scout for the army.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 01:49:48 AM by Forwardmarchstudio »

Offline janner

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Re: Educate me on Napoleonic cavalry
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2019, 09:53:49 AM »
Huh … well colour me stupid, you're right! I wonder where I got that idea from then.

 Taken on the chin - well-done sir!

This is why I don’t do Napoleonics...

:D

lol

  lol lol

...  But the French cavalry arm was certainly the best of any army in Europe.

Arguably, but not certainly  :D
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 09:56:04 AM by janner »

Offline Cubs

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Re: Educate me on Napoleonic cavalry
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2019, 01:57:10 PM »
Taken on the chin - well-done sir!

When you're wrong as much as I am, you have to embrace it to retain a measure of sanity.
'Sir John ejaculated explosively, sitting up in his chair.' ... 'The Black Gang'.

Paul Cubbin Miniature Painter

Offline vtsaogames

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Re: Educate me on Napoleonic cavalry
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2019, 12:46:01 AM »
While all British cavalry (save the Hussars) were dragoons of one sort or another, this does not mean they didn't have heavy cavalry. British Dragoons (and Dragoon Guards) were big men on big horses. The British Isles had some excellent horse farms. On most of the continent, various armies marched back and forth, buying, impressing or just stealing horseflesh from 1792 through 1815. A decade or so of this means the British had some of the best horses in Europe. So the titles weren't as important as men, horses and training.

The British dragoons could hit very hard. They did have a tendency to get out of control after a successful charge and become vulnerable to ruin at the hands of fresh enemy cavalry after their horses were jaded and their formations undone by pursuit. The most famous case of this is the Union Brigade at Waterloo but there are others in the Peninsula.

Wellington wanted to send one regiment back to Britain while keeping their horses after one snafu. He was talked down.
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With a glorious swish of his sword and his lance
And a glorious clank of his tin-plated pants. - Dr. Seuss


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Offline janner

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Re: Educate me on Napoleonic cavalry
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2019, 05:07:31 PM »
The tendency to bet out of control is over stated.

When compared to other nations, they were arguebly no more prone to over-extension than anyone else.

Offline vtsaogames

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Re: Educate me on Napoleonic cavalry
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2019, 05:46:36 PM »
I've read "Galloping at Everything" and am not totally convinced. One thing: troops knew when KGL cavalry galloped back into camp it was time to sound the long roll. This indicates that they didn't know if British cavalry was being high-spirited or chased.

Haynthornwaite posited years back in an article in the Courier that the full out charge is what led to the control problem. It gave an incredible shock but then often led to pursuit. The French frequently charged at the trot, not such a heavy shock but easier to rein in.

Offline Cubs

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Re: Educate me on Napoleonic cavalry
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2019, 06:36:50 PM »
I would guess that any nation whose cavalry officers consisted of the upper classes would struggle to impose firm military discipline, since these were people disinclined to taking orders. Post-Revolutionary France would obviously not have this issue, but the other monarchies might well do.

Offline janner

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Re: Educate me on Napoleonic cavalry
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2019, 06:57:18 AM »
I've read "Galloping at Everything" and am not totally convinced. One thing: troops knew when KGL cavalry galloped back into camp it was time to sound the long roll. This indicates that they didn't know if British cavalry was being high-spirited or chased.

Haynthornwaite posited years back in an article in the Courier that the full out charge is what led to the control problem. It gave an incredible shock but then often led to pursuit. The French frequently charged at the trot, not such a heavy shock but easier to rein in.

Yet in The Waterloo Armies (2007), Haythornwaite wrote that the Union most likely charged at the trot at Waterloo and highlighted that eyewitnesses described that they walked through the enemy infantry.

Ian Fletcher presented an argument based on verifiable data, but continues to struggle against popular perceptions. What detractors consistantly fail to address is how Wellington could have ventured into Spain and pursue offensive operations into France without a competant cavalry arm.

The French armies in Spain had large numbers of mounted troops. Yet the British cavalry successfully provided intelligence, prevented the French from interfering with Allied movements, and countered their opposition in the battlefield. Without effective British cavalry to screen the Allied army’s movements from the French cavalry and protect his infantry in the field, Wellington’s operations would have been severely hampered - in effect, he would have been limited to defensive operations in Portugal.

The British infantry generally enjoy a strong reputation for their performance in Iberia, but the cavalry was integral to Wellington’s success.

Offline jon_1066

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Re: Educate me on Napoleonic cavalry
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2019, 09:58:34 AM »
Both could be correct though.  The light cavalry largely providing the intelligence and screening could well have performed at least competently alongside the heavy cavalry going out of control in the large scale pitched battles on a regular basis.

Offline janner

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Re: Educate me on Napoleonic cavalry
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2019, 07:49:49 PM »
That would work but for a lack of verifiable data to support it  lol

British light and heavy dragoons were employed in a similar fashion, which is unsurprising as they used the same manual. The adage was ‘move as lights, fight as heavies’.

Offline jon_1066

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Re: Educate me on Napoleonic cavalry
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2019, 07:55:06 PM »
It can still be true that when doing the job of light cavalry they are competent but when it comes to a pitched battle they lose their heads.  So evidence of Wellington being able to sustain an offensive in the Penninsular doesn’t preclude large bodies of British cavalry from charging at everything in the pitched battles.  The two are not mutually exclusive.

Offline janner

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Re: Educate me on Napoleonic cavalry
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2019, 07:08:42 PM »
An interesting perspective - how do you distinguish pitched battles from routine cavalry work?

The British cavalry successes at Sahagun and Benavente, for example, were arguably routine cavalry work rather than pitched battles. Either way, there was no loss of control - quite the contrary.

The challenge for fans of the charge at everything myth is that for the handful of examples of a loss of control are swamped by examples of British cavalry acting effectively.

Offline jon_1066

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Re: Educate me on Napoleonic cavalry
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2019, 12:30:12 PM »
Considering both those battles involved British light cavalry and the first was a 400 yard charge I wouldn't consider it evidence dispelling the British heavy cavalry charge at everything myth.  Also both were pure cavalry engagements rather than a pitched battle involving other arms.

It is clear that the heavy cavalry at Waterloo lost control.  Was this institutional or a problem with the commander?  Uxbridge should obviously have organised a reserve rather than get involved in the charge.  Did this hot headed action extend to other senior officers?  Was any difference in application of doctrine due to the quality of senior British Cavalry officers?  Did in fact the aggression of the cavalry lead to successes at the small scale but problems in controlling a division sized body?  Or was it just one of those things?

Offline janner

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Re: Educate me on Napoleonic cavalry
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2019, 02:09:19 PM »
As has been mentioned earlier, the employment of British light and heavy dragoons was not as distinct as in other European armies. Indeed, they were sometimes brigaded together, such as at Fuentes de Onoro. Considering them seperately can be, therefore, unsafe.

When it comes to Waterloo, there is no evidence of a loss of cohesion by 1st Life Guards and the Blues. Moreover, too many have assumed that the casualties the regiments of both the Household and Unions brigades suffered was during that one charge, rather than through the whole day of fighting. Contrary to the myth, both the Household and Union brigades continued to perform a valuable role, such as counter charging the French cavalry on numerous ocassions. For example, the records of the Inniskillings record a further five charges after they were allegedly ‘destroyed’ in the initial engagement.

As for a reserve, Ponsonby seemingly believed their target too large to reduce his frontage by forming a reserve, but chose to attack in echelon instead.

When you get into the weeds, the old stories do not always hold true.