An independent review of Thud & Blunder by Meeples & Miniatures

[Craig]

An independent review of Thud & Blunder - fantasy skirmish rules: https://theministryofgentlemanlywarfare.wordpress.com/2019/03/05/first-review-of-thud-blunder/

[Fates Fickle Finger]

Great stuff! I didn’t need convincing anyway and can’t wait to get hold of these😁😁
FFF

[Craig]

Thanks Triple F.

North Star have announced that they are shipping pre-orders immediately, and will keep the pre-order window - including the 10% off coupon - open until the 13th March!

[D. Brownie]

Hi everyone!
I bought the digital version of T&B after having read the review: I totally agree with It. If you like fantasy skirmish game you must buy it. I have not played It yet but I love the fact that Is a toolbox: you can imagine your fantasy characters and there are so many options and a point system that allow you to do It. It's wonderful to create your own heroes.
The basics are quite simple, but, if you want, the game can reach a huge depth and there are rules for almost every situation your warbands could deal with.
However, having not played It yet (maybe I'll change my mind), I see a minor problem (at least for me but others can appreciate it).
Everyone has 1 hit point and at the same time it's too easy to hit. Despite destiny roll and Hero points, the fact that an ancient dragon could be killed by a single arrow is too much for me... This could be easily fixed in various way, that on the other hand would made the game slower: more hp for everyone (maybe with cumulative malus associated), 9 or 8 and not 7 as basic ARmor or an enhancement of the Hero point system.
Except this I love the game with all his multiple facets and it's D&Dish influence and I appreciate very much the "gentlemen" philosophy behind.
Davide
P.S. Is It possible to have a PDF roster sheet? Thanks

[Paboook]

I am impatiantly waiting for my hardback copy

Craig: Do you plan to start an ongoing thread on T&B on Lead Adventure Forum? I would prefer that one to endless number of small threads.

[Hobgoblin]

I also bought the PDF and have been enjoying reading through.

Everyone has 1 hit point and at the same time it's too easy to hit. Despite destiny roll and Hero points, the fact that an ancient dragon could be killed by a single arrow is too much for me...

I know what you mean - but then think about Smaug ...

It's a really difficult one for game designers, I think, because once you make it impossible for a huge dragon to be killed in a single blow or shot, the game can't reflect lots of examples from fantasy literature or mythology. In Volsungssaga, Fafnir is killed with a single thrust for example.

Maybe better armour for dragons is the solution, though, as you say.

[Bloggard]

such mythic dispatchings usually involve a particularly well-suited hero (either equipment or otherwise etc) - you'd need something to allow for that? (cards / skills bought from a points pool etc).

[D. Brownie]

Hi guys!

I also bought the PDF and have been enjoying reading through.

I know what you mean - but then think about Smaug ...

It's a really difficult one for game designers, I think, because once you make it impossible for a huge dragon to be killed in a single blow or shot, the game can't reflect lots of examples from fantasy literature or mythology. In Volsungssaga, Fafnir is killed with a single thrust for example.

Maybe better armour for dragons is the solution, though, as you say.

This Is true, but Is also true that here everytime this poor dragon suffer a wound (it's not so easy, but not so impossible too) dies (there Is a 10% possibility of knocking down too).. In my AD&D world It couldn't happen, unless maybe with a Vorpal Blade so actually an approach Kill or Nothing.

such mythic dispatchings usually involve a particularly well-suited hero (either equipment or otherwise etc) - you'd need something to allow for that? (cards / skills bought from a points pool etc).

But as I said I haven't played yet and so, trying It, Will maybe work perfectly. These are my First impressions.
Yes, a grunt cannot hurt the dragon normally. You Need a good D10 score + good FV + good weapon bonus. So let's see, I Hope this weekend...

[Craig]

However, having not played It yet (maybe I'll change my mind), I see a minor problem (at least for me but others can appreciate it).
Everyone has 1 hit point and at the same time it's too easy to hit. Despite destiny roll and Hero points, the fact that an ancient dragon could be killed by a single arrow is too much for me... This could be easily fixed in various way, that on the other hand would made the game slower: more hp for everyone (maybe with cumulative malus associated), 9 or 8 and not 7 as basic ARmor or an enhancement of the Hero point system.

Thanks for your kind words, and I have a some thoughts on the one thing that seems to be holding you back.

Yes, an elder dragon could be taken down with a single blow. However, for someone to do so they would first have to hit the dragon's armour value of 16 (the highest in the game) using a d10 and modifiers from their Fight Value and Weapon bonus. Not easy at all.
The the Dragon get's a destiny roll, rolling a d10 to score 2 or more.
This may be modified by the weapon used by one or two, so the Dragon  most likely has to score 3 or better.
Also an elder dragon has five hero points, one of which it could spend to reroll a failed destiny check.

Taking down such a beast is a team effort at best. A week ago my entire Orcish warband hit a lesser dragon than this and paid the ultimate price for their temerity, despite having a leader with an FV of +3 and a weapon bonus of +4.

The one hit system, originally included as a KISS measure to prevent the need for recording hit points, has been tried and tested through four sets of rules now - In Her Majesty's Name, Daisho, Blood Eagle and now T&B.

Give it a try and I think that you will soon appreciate how the mechanics work.

[Craig]

Craig: Do you plan to start an ongoing thread on T&B on Lead Adventure Forum? I would prefer that one to endless number of small threads.

Unfortunately this is not in my gift. Sub-sections are only rarely granted to games whose sheer volume of posts threaten to overwhelm a section, like IHMN did when it was released, or more recently with Joe's Frostgrave game.

I feel that this is as it should be. So, if you good people begin creating lots of threads describing your warbands, campaigns and AARs, it could happen [looks at mod hopefully ]

If not, then there is always the dedicated Facebook page:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/260554421452323/

[Blazmo]

I think it's worth pointing out that the Numb trait automatically passes the first Destiny trait roll a character with the trait has but the way it's worded implies it's only for creatures that thematically speaking don't feel pain. I don't know, maybe a future update could rename/repurpose this trait or come up with a similar trait in the future for beings that are exceptionally tough but still do feel pain? Also, as Craig says, it's very unlikely a character will be able to pull off a one shot kill of a dragon and some characters with low scores simply aren't able to hit it without heavy weapons and some even with.

EDIT: Failing all this, perhaps you could specify in the scenario guidelines that one or more creatures has however many hit points you'd like to assign them?

[D. Brownie]

Thank you Craig for your kind answers!
Actually After my post I felt that I picked up the worst exemple possible... the elder dragon with all his stats and traits Is very hard to Kill.
But a powerful wizard (can they wear armours?) or a skilled ranger/thief/Bard... Everything not  heavily armoured can die quite easily or of you prefer not too hardly. On the other hand maybe this could be an input to develop tactics.
I'M looking forward to play... But I'm quite sure It Will be a Bloody game

[Fates Fickle Finger]

Just picked up my Hardback from my local shop, I had high expectations and it has more than met them! Can’t remember the last time I rushed home with rules and then sat and consumed them. The actual book itself is really nice and great production values and layout.
Now off to start my first warband

FFF

[Craig]

Now off to start my first warband

Thanks TripleF.  Let us know what you have chosen or created, We're really excited to see what people do with these rules as they have been a labour of love.

[Craig]

Actually After my post I felt that I picked up the worst exemple possible... the elder dragon with all his stats and traits Is very hard to Kill.

You did give me an open goal to shoot at 

But a powerful wizard (can they wear armours?) or a skilled ranger/thief/Bard... Everything not  heavily armoured can die quite easily or of you prefer not too hardly. On the other hand maybe this could be an input to develop tactics.
I'M looking forward to play... But I'm quite sure It Will be a Bloody game

It is indeed a bloody game. Deathstar units don't really work and you have to fine tune your builds to take advantage of your opponent's strengths and weaknesses, or the scenario type.

For example I have several builds for my Orcs.
 
One involves taking four orcs with longbows alongside the usual warriors. This is good against slow-moving opponents or ones that are lightly armoured, as I can dominate fire-lanes and drive them to take cover giving me the tactical initiative.

Another is a built around a core the lethal warriors, veteran Orcs with a couple of Ogres or Trolls. Slow, but hard-hitting, with plenty of endurance, great for take and hold scenarios, less so for claiming and carrying off objectives.

My balanced force that I take when I'm not sure what the enemy will have consists of:
Grabnutz - a powerful leader,
Derek the Troll - very nasty indeed,
Two well-armed warriors [Bert and Ernie],
Two spear armed warriors  [Bill and Ben],
Two archers with longbows [Pikkum and Stikkum].
The first four are the heavy boys, unable to run but able to hold their own in a fight with most opponents.
The latter four are lighter on their feat, able to reach objectives quickly, turn flanks and harass lighter elements of the enemy.
I'm considering exchanging the troll for a shaman [Hobnobz] to bring a little magical flair to the affair.