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Author Topic: TSG's take on Rich H's Independent .  (Read 3223 times)

Offline tin shed gamer

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TSG's take on Rich H's Independent .
« on: March 10, 2019, 12:01:09 AM »
Rich has of late being taking on inter war 'also ran' AFV's.
He was kind enough to send me an early print of his take on the Vickers Independent prototype tank.
It should be noted that it is an early print and there are a few details Rich has gone on to modify and add detail to the design.Now I've modified the hatches and the detailing of the main gun.
Plus of course I've added an inferred driver and a commander in the guise of an officer of the Seaforth Highlander ( to represent an interesting footnote in the story of the Independent.)
My print has fought back all the way. Firstly when I removed the main turret hatch.It was full of uncured resin . Not totally unexpected as the resin cures under UVA light. But sat on the sofa with the Mrs and that happens  ::. ( it didn't go onto the sofa thats why I'm still alive to tell the tale.)
It's easy enough to sort with cotton buds/Qtips. Then leave in Sun light to cure any residue.
When I was half way through painting . I found the paint on the model getting very tacky in places and brush hairs getting left behind in the paint.
So as I was working under a reading lamp in the house I thought I'd down tools for the night as the shadows from the lamp as I wasn't sure it was the ink or the brushes.
The next morning it was clear the rear right turret had a crack across the top and side and had been leaking resin into the wet paint. So back to the cotton bud to clean up excess resin then back into sun light.
It's just minor hiccups and part of the learning curve . Rich has done a cracking job with Independent . Rich even offered to replace the casting and was interested in my feed back on the evil little beggar .As I mentioned mine is a very early print so it was bound to have some issues. But the challenge its provided have made it all the more fun to do.
Now its about 90% finished so I thought it prudent to take a couple of pictures of my progress just in case its not finished fighting back.

Mark.

Offline Blackwolf

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Re: TSG's take on Rich H's Independent .
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2019, 12:24:17 AM »
Nice! I’m surprised how little it is.
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Online Ultravanillasmurf

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Re: TSG's take on Rich H's Independent .
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2019, 08:23:50 AM »
Nice! I’m surprised how little it is.
Very nice, and yes I am surprised, I remember it as looking huge at Bovington.

Offline tin shed gamer

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Re: TSG's take on Rich H's Independent .
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2019, 12:55:16 PM »
I did mention to Rich on his thread and by PM that It felt too small. On this version(and it is a work in progress.) There's a couple of interpretations of the detailing that compound the sense of it being on the small side . First being the main turret is to shallow The dome section is fine but the vertical side's are to shallow. Which had a knock on effect with other detailing. The machine gun turrets feel as if there wouldn't fit the machine gun and the gunner(who sits to the side of the guns.). The driver's position is wider and taller on the original .
As mentioned This isn't Rich's Final version it's not perfect and its been obnoxious to build and paint.
I like it for all those reasons. Rich has offered to replace it . Plus it has a lot in common with original it's an on going process of build and corrections resulting in a one off vehicle.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 01:00:01 PM by tin shed gamer »

Offline FramFramson

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Re: TSG's take on Rich H's Independent .
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2019, 07:27:30 PM »
That main turret sure must have been cramped! I wonder how nightmarish the internal layout and ergonomics were!


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Offline tin shed gamer

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Re: TSG's take on Rich H's Independent .
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2019, 08:27:28 PM »
 This should help Matt.Interior shots of the turrets .
Three men in the main turret. Total of an eight man crew.

Offline Rich H

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Re: TSG's take on Rich H's Independent .
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2019, 10:31:28 PM »
Wow it has fought back!

Sorry about the turrets - I suspect what has happened is the uncured resin has blocked the drain hole resulting in the curing resin cracking the turret.  I had to print them 3 times to get decent prints as it was due to similar problems.  I left the prints in the sun but it has been pretty dreary.

I'm now making turret pegs as large as possible and the drain holes like wise but I am still struggling to get the uncured resin out.  (I wasn't thinking anyone would be cutting them open..) I'm also opening the main hatches...

As for scale - I'm beholden to wikipeadia (Or similar) for dimensions and divide by 56, and they are unverifiable by me.  They can easily be rescaled.

Always happy for feedback and I'll fix anything that's unusable ;)

Rich

Offline FramFramson

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Re: TSG's take on Rich H's Independent .
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2019, 05:47:41 PM »
I think the scale trouble can be seen by comparing the images.

When you look at Mark's picture as compared to the photo, the person in scale looks correct by height in both photos, but Mark's mini has wargame figure proportions, so he's much stockier and has a mini's typically large hands/head/feet. In a tank with such tight space, the difference really shows. I suspect that your current version would look just fine as compared to say, Perry WWII figures.

The answer might be a slight scale tweak (perhaps 1:52?), in order for it to look "right" next to wargaming figures.

@ Mark: I daresay having 8 men in that space would have been "fun". I can't help but wonder if that's part of the reason the tank never made it to service in the first place.

Ergonomics was definitely a consideration that went overlooked in tank design until later in WWII, when nations started to realize from action reports that it wasn't a crew comfort issue (don't want to go all soft, after all!) so much as if you actually gave the crew room to move they might actually be able to do their jobs better::)

What's the old saying? The only time to worry about the men is when they stop grumbling?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 05:52:55 PM by FramFramson »

Offline Maddoc

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Re: TSG's take on Rich H's Independent .
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2019, 12:54:53 PM »
Also, both the figure and the guy have their shoulders in line (pretty much) with the top of the hull/track.

Offline FramFramson

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Re: TSG's take on Rich H's Independent .
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2019, 04:39:51 PM »
Also, both the figure and the guy have their shoulders in line (pretty much) with the top of the hull/track.

This is true, though, you've got to be a bit careful, as the human is raising his arm, which elevates the shoulder somewhat. Not that that makes a huge difference.

Offline tin shed gamer

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Re: TSG's take on Rich H's Independent .
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2019, 09:47:37 AM »
 Rich after our conversation it seemed the obvious way to detract from the drivers hatch issue was to make a feature of it.(okay its tin shed logic ;D but it works ;) )
The commander is a structural element rather as it supports both parts of the hatch cover. So he's a little chubbier than normal.
Personally I'm not bothered that its a little small as I'm not going to field it as anything more than an objective/plot point (5-6mm to 1ft is my preference for vehicles plus casting limitations often require modification of proportions)
As for resin leakage it's pretty common on professional prints too. It's a learning curve with a temperamental product.
Using a person to scale an object is fraught with pitfalls. As you've no clear indicator of his hieght.
It is possible if you have a fixed/known indicator( but tricky none the less  )
Rich is the first to admit the plans he used as a guide were a little off.
The reason it looks smaller than it actually is . Is simply the compression of detail of the turrets and a missing deck plate. All add up to compound the feeling of the top side being shallow and the whole. Vehicle being smaller than it is.

This isn't Rich's final version.It is flawed as are all Beta prints.It's called first fix and snagging for a reason. ;)
I personally felt it was an intelligent interpretation worthy of mentioning as it shows Rich's thought process and problem solving. Plus it'll give a nice comparison when somebody posts a finished version on here.

Mark.

Offline Rich H

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Re: TSG's take on Rich H's Independent .
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2019, 11:48:34 AM »
Cheers :D

I've learned a lot!  I've fixed the majority of the problems too.  I'm now printing them with thinner hulls (Saves material and gets a better cure) and with much bigger drain holes (10mm+ where possible) I'm also using a lot more solvent to wash them out.  They are also getting a much longer sunbathe to ensure there is no uncured resin.

Pics are always ropey as above you've no idea if the guy in the pic is a giant or not but I'd agree it doesn't feel right adn 28mm is an asthetic not a scale!  Personally I think that 1/56 is unsuitable for 28mm as figures tend towards the heavyset, 1/50 provides more room!  But the market says... ;)  Also the drawing was scaled to the wiki dimension for width, so it's more than possible it's off and I'm a bit far fomr Bov to go with my tape measure...

I seem to be gathering part finished tank hulls now too...  they are on the mantlepiece but SWMBO hasn't noticed yet.  3 A1E1, 3 sets of E-100 tracks, an E-100 hull, an overscale Grosstraktor and a load of other bits too...  plus anotehr GT, 2x T18s and some other bits in the kitchen on the windowsill curing (Learned!)

Offline Maddoc

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Re: TSG's take on Rich H's Independent .
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2019, 01:02:25 PM »
This is true, though, you've got to be a bit careful, as the human is raising his arm, which elevates the shoulder somewhat. Not that that makes a huge difference.

Touché sir, touché.

Offline FramFramson

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Re: TSG's take on Rich H's Independent .
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2019, 05:22:45 PM »
Cheers :D

I've learned a lot!  I've fixed the majority of the problems too.  I'm now printing them with thinner hulls (Saves material and gets a better cure) and with much bigger drain holes (10mm+ where possible) I'm also using a lot more solvent to wash them out.  They are also getting a much longer sunbathe to ensure there is no uncured resin.

Pics are always ropey as above you've no idea if the guy in the pic is a giant or not but I'd agree it doesn't feel right adn 28mm is an asthetic not a scale!  Personally I think that 1/56 is unsuitable for 28mm as figures tend towards the heavyset, 1/50 provides more room!  But the market says... ;)  Also the drawing was scaled to the wiki dimension for width, so it's more than possible it's off and I'm a bit far fomr Bov to go with my tape measure...

I seem to be gathering part finished tank hulls now too...  they are on the mantlepiece but SWMBO hasn't noticed yet.  3 A1E1, 3 sets of E-100 tracks, an E-100 hull, an overscale Grosstraktor and a load of other bits too...  plus anotehr GT, 2x T18s and some other bits in the kitchen on the windowsill curing (Learned!)

It's clear you are not a cat owner, sir.  lol

Offline Rich H

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Re: TSG's take on Rich H's Independent .
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2019, 07:10:41 PM »
I'm a part time child wrangler at the moment...