*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 19, 2024, 04:31:36 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Donate

We Appreciate Your Support

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 1685053
  • Total Topics: 118007
  • Online Today: 766
  • Online Ever: 2235
  • (October 29, 2023, 12:32:45 AM)
Users Online

Recent

Author Topic: Need help with mid 1830s militia battle on American frontier  (Read 1340 times)

Offline fixedpoint

  • Assistant
  • Posts: 26
Need help with mid 1830s militia battle on American frontier
« on: March 19, 2019, 11:33:56 PM »
Hey all,

I'm hoping this is the right board for this. I'm looking to recreate a historical small scale skirmish between a state militia and a county militia on the American frontier in the mid 1830s. There were about 75-100 participants on both sides. I'm flexible on scale and would choose that to match the rules and the best available figures. On rules, I would love something that captures period flavor and brings out the undisciplined nature of both sides. I was going to reach for Sharp Practice first, but it says 1700-1805 on the label. What would be your recommendations for rules, figures, and scale?

Offline FifteensAway

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4565
Re: Need help with mid 1830s militia battle on American frontier
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2019, 12:44:27 AM »
Well, I'd say maybe the Old West board might get better responses.  Sounds interesting, something in the Old Northwest?  Can't think of what this might have been.  Maybe Mormons?  Before Texas and the Alamo?  I think with a bit more information you can get better responses. 

Offline Pendrake

  • Librarian
  • Posts: 150
Re: Need help with mid 1830s militia battle on American frontier
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2019, 02:28:22 AM »
Carthage Greys Militia v. Early Nauvoo Legion, Hypothetical Battle involves a high-value prisoner... [?] ...that would be about 1844.

Unless it was set hypothetically ten years earlier?
Pendrake

Offline zippyfusenet

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 420
Re: Need help with mid 1830s militia battle on American frontier
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2019, 02:45:10 AM »
I would also like to know more about what battle you want to model.

I'd also like to know whether you plan this as a two-player or multi-player game. I'd recommend different rules in either case.
You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

Offline fixedpoint

  • Assistant
  • Posts: 26
Re: Need help with mid 1830s militia battle on American frontier
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2019, 03:50:11 AM »
You already guessed the general direction. It's the most evenly matched engagement of the "Mormon War": the Battle of Crooked River. On one side, there was the Missouri state militia commanded by Captain Samuel Bogart. On the other side, there was the Caldwell County militia, seemingly composed entirely of mormons, and possibly aided by Danites (a fanatical, secretive, unofficial and vigilante subgroup in early mormon culture). The mormons were led by David Patten, known as Captain Fear Not, who also was one of the senior leaders of the church. There was bad blood between the two groups before they met and both sides had forced people out of homes and even burned homes and towns, so tensions were high. Despite being state militia, Samuel Bogart and many of his men had participated in the mob violence as well. On the mormon side, any Danites that had participated would have done much the same and I believe at least David Patten had as well. A Caldwell county judge (also mormon) ordered the militia to attack because they believed the other side held hostages that were to be executed.

The battle occurred in a no man's land between counties. Not many people were killed on either side and the battle was really just a meeting engagement although it did include a desperate charge across the river with at least some drawn sabres. Despite the small number of casualties, the battle had a large impact. The extermination order was issued by the Governor in the immediate aftermath likely in large part because of exaggerated reports of the battle's outcome. And as a result, the mormons left Missouri and eventually went to Nauvoo. Also, David Patten was killed.

So the battle is composed of militia and probably not well trained militias at that. More like vigilantes on both sides with a few experienced men here and there. Although at least some of the mormons would probably be considered fanatics by most game systems since the most fanatical elements were probably involved in the battle. For example, the leader, David Patten was known to pray to become a martyr. History may have been quite different if the battle had resulted in heavy casualties one way or the other.

The battle holds special interest for me because my own ancestor participated in it on the mormon side. Later, he was a second lieutenant in the mormon battalion and passed through Arizona on their march. Still later, he returned to Arizona and settled St David between Tombstone and Benson three years prior to the beginning of those rough towns and helped enable their settlement. He knew Geronimo and lived quite a life. As you might have guessed, St. David is named after David Patten who was killed in the Battle of Crooked River.

As to how I would like to run the game. I'm thinking of doing it for my local club, so I'd GM it and have 4-6 players. Perhaps each one taking a column. But unless the replay is a lot bloodier, or I work out some really interesting victory conditions, it might play better as a 2 player conflict.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 12:51:22 AM by fixedpoint »

Offline jambo1

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 2136
Re: Need help with mid 1830s militia battle on American frontier
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2019, 05:19:38 AM »
Sounds a really interesting battle with quite a few characters! What figures would you use? Would the militias be uniformed or in everyday clothes? Looking forward toseeing where this one goes. :)

Offline Romark

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • Galactic Brain
  • *
  • Posts: 4482
Re: Need help with mid 1830s militia battle on American frontier
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2019, 09:53:26 AM »
Perhaps Boothill Miniatures Texan figures may be useable ?  :)


Offline jon_1066

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 907
Re: Need help with mid 1830s militia battle on American frontier
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2019, 09:55:59 AM »
Sharpe Practice would probably still fit.  The emphasis is on leaders in that game and their impact on a battle. 

Offline zippyfusenet

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 420
Re: Need help with mid 1830s militia battle on American frontier
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2019, 12:41:34 PM »
There were about 75-100 participants on both sides...I'm thinking of doing it for my local club, so I'd GM it and have 4-6 players.

Given those parameters, I'm going to recommend a set of rules you've probably never heard of, Our Moccasins Trickled Blood, available for download in pdf form from Wargame Vault.

https://www.wargamevault.com/product/98833/Our-Moccasins-Trickled-Blood?term=our+mocca

OMTB was originally written to wargame battles of Little Turtle's War (1785-1795) between the Northwest Indian Confederacy with British/Canadian support and the United States Army and Kentucky militia, especially for multi-player events at game conventions. It works very well for the bigger frontier battles in North America throughout the flintlock era, c. 1680-1830, and will support hot militia-on-militia action. OMTB was designed for 28mm figures but could be played with 20mm or 15mm figures instead, single or multi-mounted.

Crooked River is a small engagement for OMTB, but I suppose you'll give each player a dozen or two figures to command, so if you model the forces at 1:2 or 1:1 ratio, you'll have enough figures on the table to make the game work.

I recommend OMTB because the turn structure is IGO-UGO, first all players on Side A move and fight, then all players on Side B move and fight, then it's the next game turn. This keeps 4 or 6 players involved in the game, whereas with rules that activate one unit at a time, players often lose focus while they wait for their turn to do something.

If you play Crooked River one-on-one with a friend, you might prefer different rules.

Offline the commissar

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 406
Re: Need help with mid 1830s militia battle on American frontier
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2019, 07:18:45 PM »
.......... I was going to reach for Sharp Practice first, but it says 1700-1805 on the label...........

Sharp Practice are for 1700 -1865 so they will be fine - in fact for the size of forces I think they would work very well

Offline Malamute

  • Prince of Darkness
  • Supporting Adventurer
  • Elder God
  • *
  • Posts: 19298
    • Boot Hill Miniatures
Re: Need help with mid 1830s militia battle on American frontier
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2019, 07:34:56 PM »
Perhaps Boothill Miniatures Texan figures may be useable ?  :)

I concur ;) :)

What about the new Osprey America’s wars skirmish rules Patriots and Rebels?
"These creatures do not die like the bee after the first sting, but go on age after age, feeding on the blood of the living"  - Abraham Van Helsing

Offline fixedpoint

  • Assistant
  • Posts: 26
Re: Need help with mid 1830s militia battle on American frontier
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2019, 12:56:14 AM »
Thanks everyone. The Texan figures from Boothill Miniatures look like they will work well. I'll look into the three rulesets that people mentioned.

And Commissar, looks like I misread the end date for Sharp Practice on my phone. Thanks for the heads up.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 03:14:34 AM by fixedpoint »