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Author Topic: Were Sikh Akali permitted armour?  (Read 2338 times)

Offline Deflatermouse

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Re: Were Sikh Akali permitted armour?
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2019, 09:49:40 PM »
The Steve Shaw ones are very nice. The Black Hat fellows bulk them out fairly well. I haven't seen their mounted Akali, but as they were supposed to be dismounted I never got them.
I suppose I could have used them for a Command base with the Irregular general.
I am now looking to figure how I can give one of them a black flag.

I use them as a single or double base per Irregular Brigade. Not anything more than that. They tend to not do anything more than give a single bonus to the Brigade.

Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: Were Sikh Akali permitted armour?
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2019, 07:31:35 AM »
Yes the Lichfield 'Akali' flag is mostly black, but the indigo would originally have been a Navy blue. According to an old colour print of the Maidstone 'tricolore' captured by the 50th Queen's Own Regt. it is technically a quadricolour, a rectangle in blue white red and blue with the same block printed motifs as seen on the more familiar red triangular standards. The Gurkha Museum reconstruction flag is actually based on an unusual example taken at Gujarat. The original is somewhat similar to Mahdist flags with a design on one side only. It is held in the National Army Museum archives.
Warriors dreams, summer grasses, all that remains

Offline ARKOUDAKI

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Re: Were Sikh Akali permitted armour?
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2019, 09:14:22 AM »
With all due respect sukhe_bator, your comments are inaccurate and misleading. The Akali flag was predominately black as I have stated previously ( http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=116611.15). It wasn't blue, not even a dark blue. It did probably have some indigo dye included but just a tone appearance.

As for the Fauj-i-Khas (French Legion) flag held by the Maidstone Museum, as part of my research work I have inspected the actual flag (which is in need of serious restoration) and the graphic depicting the three flags (two King's colors and the one French Legion flag) you refer to isn't very accurate, as there are a number of errors in it relating to the motifs and such.

As for your comments about the flag on display in the Gurkha Museum in Winchester and its relation to the NAM, this is another red herring that one I too originally fell for but have since discovered has no actual providence. As I stated earlier (see thread http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=116611.15) the flag in the Gurkha Sikh Wars exhibit is actually not related to the Sikh Wars, but is more of an Afghan style flag. I was originally informed through 'reliable sources' that the flag was a copy of one held by the NAM but I have since learned that this was just an error past down over time. Sorry but that is the reality of the situation.

I am still working on my Sikh Wars book projects - been in the works for 10 years on/off as free time permits. One aspect of this research work is the accurate portrayal of Sikh battle flags (not to be confused with Sikh religious flags, as some do). Hopefully I will convince Grahame at GMB - or someone else with equally good skills - to do some miniature recreations based on accurate flag info. I did try before with another company but despite providing them with accurate research and feedback, well, they messed it up badly and the flags they produced are just plain inaccurate. You have to have a good attention to detail to get something right.

Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: Were Sikh Akali permitted armour?
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2019, 09:40:20 AM »
I too have seen both the Lichfield and Maidstone examples in person. I never saw the Maidstone flag unpinned from its peculiar trapezoidal display case, but at least the folds have preserved much of the original colour otherwise bleached by time.
I'm sorry if my information is somewhat inaccurate. I've spent the past 20 years researching the artillery of the Sikhs and only peripherally putting together details on the standards and other military material relatede to the Sikh Wars. I'm glad others have taken on the detective work.
I'm pleased the mystery of the Winchester Gurkha Museum flag repro has been solved. I always thought the NAM examples sounded uncharacteristic of the other flags I was aware of. I never had opportunity to investigate myself, but the corpus of surviving examples from the Colstoun collection, Maidstone, Lichfield and those described and illustrated in the ILN reports points to the 3 main types you mention. Are you aware if the Sikh colour ex 31st Regt. at Clandon Park survived the disastrous fire?

Offline ARKOUDAKI

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Re: Were Sikh Akali permitted armour?
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2019, 01:40:38 PM »
Quote
I've spent the past 20 years researching the artillery of the Sikhs and only peripherally putting together details on the standards and other military material relatede to the Sikh Wars.

Is this Neil??? If so, IM me  :D


Quote
I never saw the Maidstone flag unpinned from its peculiar trapezoidal display case, but at least the folds have preserved much of the original colour otherwise bleached by time.

I was able to get it out and examine it carefully. Due to copyright issues I can't share the photos on a forum like this but like I said working on an article about Sikh battle standards and will do then for the benefit of all.  ;)

FYI, the best kept Sikh battle flags (aka the King's standard type) are held by the Toor Collection (in the UK), one in private hands (UK), and another as part of the Kapany Collection (US). Apparently there is also another well preserved one in India but I haven't yet tracked that one down or seen photos of it. I have tracked down almost all of those that came back to Britain following the wars. Most are in really bad shape, if not already destroyed.  :'(

Quote
I'm pleased the mystery of the Winchester Gurkha Museum flag repro has been solved.


Don't feel bad about that one as I got fooled too...and if this is Neil, you helped  ;D...but when I chased down all the references it became clear that this was not an accurate Sikh flag but rather an Afghan style standard. It definitely wasn't one of the few Sikh battle standards listed in the NAM catalog.

Quote
Are you aware if the Sikh colour ex 31st Regt. at Clandon Park survived the disastrous fire?
Now that still remains a mystery, as Surrey Regt says they loaned it to the NAM ages ago, and the NAM is adamant they don't have it in their collection, and that it went back to Surrey. In fact, the surviving Sikh battle flags held by the NAM are in tatters.

All interesting stuff.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 06:42:15 PM by ARKOUDAKI »

Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: Were Sikh Akali permitted armour?
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2019, 01:56:28 PM »
Is this Neil??? If so, IM me  :D
Yep c'est moi! Half the fun of this has been substantiating information that has proved to be Chinese whispers at best, or just plain wrong! I'm glad I helped in some small part. :D

Offline ARKOUDAKI

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Re: Were Sikh Akali permitted armour?
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2019, 04:13:59 PM »
 lol lol lol lol lol

Offline OB

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Re: Were Sikh Akali permitted armour?
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2019, 08:58:56 AM »
I have finished my unit of 15mm Akali.  If you would like to see them there are some pics on my blog complete with armoured officer and black flag.

https://youdonotknowthenorth.blogspot.com

Offline Deflatermouse

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  • Posts: 162
Re: Were Sikh Akali permitted armour?
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2019, 09:59:56 AM »
Very nice unit. The officer really comes up a treat.
I'm thinking I'd like to get one of him now for my fellows.
Thank you for sharing.

Offline OB

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Re: Were Sikh Akali permitted armour?
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2019, 10:45:20 AM »
Thanks very much.  He is a great little figure.  At the moment he is not appearing on the QRF website.  However if you email Geoff or Chad there and say it's the Ottoman Turk irregular infantry officer pack they may well be able to find it for you.  Also if you sign up for their newsletter you will get a 10%discount.