Thinking about rules for late Med / early Ren.. interested to hear your thoughts

[Charlie_]

To cut a long story short, I'm working on my own ruleset and have just recently decided to rethink it, approach it from a different way. This is not for commercial purposes, it's just for my own private use. However this new direction I'm considering will make it easier for other players to get into, which is surely the right direction to go in. I'd be happy using it for either demo or participation games at shows, for example.

I'm basing certain aspects of it on Hail Caesar (and the other Warlord games).
I should stress not the command/control/movement side of things, which is where I think most complaints towards HC are directed. (The way I see it, HC might be great for large games, featuring huge armies on a massive table, preferably with multiple players a side. But adapting this system for smaller games doesn't really work.)
I'm talking about the general approach to units, stats, shooting, combat, etc.... This aspect of the game will be familiar to those who play HC, but not without notable differences.
So I'd be interested in hearing from people who play or have played Hail Caesar (and if you don't like HC, why?)

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Anyway, my rules will be firmly planted in the 15th century. Or more broadly late medieval / early renaissance. From the Hundred Years War to the Italian Wars, and everything in between.
Too often this era gets lost in a no-man's land between dedicated medieval and renaissance rulesets. Take playing Wars of the Roses using Warlord Games rules for example.... Do you use Hail Caesar? Or perhaps try Pike & Shotte?
And even worse, Hail Caesar and other games are really focused on ancients, with which 'medievals' get thrown in with as an afterthought - the very late middle ages as nothing but a footnote.
My rules will be all about this specific time frame, with no nonsense about javelins, slings and elephants to distract!!!

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So what do you consider to be the defining aspects of late medieval / early renaissance warfare, and how do you think they should be represented in wargame rules? Are they served well already, or not?

A few subjects I've been pondering.....

- Cavalry charges. This era saw the supremacy of heavy cavalry charges being challenged, often with dramatic results, by determined infantry tactics. But it was by no means a quick change, and throughout the 14th, 15th and into the 16th century you see all sorts of examples of cavalry charges either failing or succeeding spectacularly. I want the rules to represent this well..... Cavalry shouldn't just be fast-moving units that hit extra hard when charging. When they charge infantry, they could potentially shatter them instantly, or be driven back with massive losses, perhaps to try again.... Heavy cavalry shouldn't be considered all-powerful nor completely redundant. When you decide to go for a heavy cavalry charge tactic.... how is it gonna work out? It should be tense for both sides, with potential for extreme and surprising outcomes!

- Missile weapons How effective should they be??? Of course this era saw the rise of the massed longbow archery of the English, and into the 16th century gunpowder weaponry came to dominate the battlefield..... But what about missile tactics in between these extremes? What sort of role should skirmishing crossbows and handguns have in say, the Burgundian wars?
I'm aware that in Hail Caesar, shooting really doesn't seem particularly effective..... Fine if you're in the Dark Ages and shooting just consists of a few javelins and stones before the battlelines clash, but it doesn't really cut it for the late medieval era, where massed shooting tactics have the potential to determine the outcome of the battle. I'm tempted as a starting point to massively increase the 'shooting value' of units, using the HC statlines as a starting point. What are your experiences with shooting in HC, ever found it underwhelming? What sort of role should it have in the late middle ages?

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Anyway, it's be interested to hear your thoughts on wargaming the late medieval / early renaissance era in a 'mass battle' format.

• What defines warfare in this era, and how does it differ from what came before and after?
• How do you find 'ancients' and 'renaissance' rules work for this era, and how do they let you down?
• What things aren't important for this era, and what should be given more attention / detail?

[aphillathehun]

Have you checked out crown of paper/coat of steel?  It's a free set from perfect captain.  It's very interesting for WotR - very specific to WotR.  I don't think it really shines for mounted combat so it's probably not going to help there.  But you might download it and have a look through for interesting gaming concepts/ideas.

[fred]

An interesting project Charlie.

I’ve played a lot of HC, but some time ago, and we converted it for fantasy play too, which is perhaps closer to your period, than the classical HC for ancients.

I recall that heavy cavalry were very powerful, and if they could over match an opponent, then the ability to smash an enemy unit, and then charge the next unit in the flank was very effective, I can’t recall if an overrun into a third unit was possible too.

Light Infantry was particularly good as it could manoeuvre well, but then fight OK too. I recall my elves were very good at shooting, but I forgot what rule we gave them, it might have just been +1 to hit.

Several of our group didn’t really like the combat results, thinking that it resulted in a a kind of rugby scrum with a lot of pushing and shoving of units back and forward. This wasn’t something that bothered me, but I’m not sure how relevant it is to the later period.

Hope some of this helps.

[SteveBurt]

We found Field of Glory:Renaissance a pretty good set (better than the ancients rules IMO), and that would cover the period you want. Has some nice rules for the (huge) early Tercios.