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Author Topic: Rebels and patriots skirmisher question  (Read 1736 times)

Offline gorillacrab

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Rebels and patriots skirmisher question
« on: May 29, 2019, 09:34:25 PM »
Hi,
When the rules hit the street, one issue that leapt out was the decision to reduce the musket range of non-Light Infantry "Skirmisher" units to 12" instead of the standard 18".
This made sense for  play balance -- and matched the reduced range of comparable units in earlier versions of the Rampant series. You could also argue untrained skirmisher shooters could not generate effective fire at longer range - so the 12" range was justified.
So - if you have been playing RaP for a while, are you content with the rule as it stands or have you homeruled it? (ie fire the full 18" but if beyond 12" treat the target as though it is in one level of better cover).
Prof Challenger, I presume?

Offline vtsaogames

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Re: Rebels and patriots skirmisher question
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2019, 01:05:12 AM »
Have played a couple games so far and am not near home ruling yet - except one home rule we applied to "The Men Who Would be Kings" and imported to R&P: units can fire two ranks deep, so if firing to the flank, only part of the unit can fire, reduces the "turret" effect.

But we haven't got the rules down straight yet so won't be mucking with house rules until we know we're playing it right.
And the glorious general led the advance
With a glorious swish of his sword and his lance
And a glorious clank of his tin-plated pants. - Dr. Seuss


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Offline has.been

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Re: Rebels and patriots skirmisher question
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2019, 06:47:03 AM »
Still enjoying the standard game, playing another in about an hour (ACW)
I and Vodkafan are engaged on starting with Jacobites. There they will,
no doubt, be some 'House rules' eventually. Before any of that I really must
dig out some appropriate CDs, for mood music.

Offline SHARPE52

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Re: Rebels and patriots skirmisher question
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2019, 01:50:14 PM »
We have been playing RaP for a while now and the only issue we raised was the 12 dice allowed to "genuine skirmish troops" when given fire order because they have only 6 models. in any case they have only 12" range. In another similar discussion in this forum we were convinced not to halve dice and it worked!
If you give "skirmish order" to other troops such as Light Cav, or Native you fire with half dice at 12". As far as I understand only Light Infantry given skirmish order can fire at 18" but only with half dice and it seems it works well for us. Line infantry only can fire at 18" whatever is their formation. (they cannot have skirmish order)
Does ot make sense to you?
Marco
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 01:52:10 PM by SHARPE52 »

Offline vtsaogames

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Re: Rebels and patriots skirmisher question
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2019, 03:56:10 PM »
All troops who can use the skirmish order do so by moving half speed and firing with half normal dice. Skirmishers can also sit tight and fire with all dice, while natives are not allowed to fire with all dice, just skirmish. It seems counter-intuitive but so far the rules work. Mind, I don't rate any Indians as natives since I feel that is the cinematic (and incorrect) view. Rating woodland Indians as skirmishers seems to work, at least for me. I suspect that the native troop rating will work better for Highlanders of the '45 and Vendee rebels. You can see where my thoughts lead.

I'm not inclined to tinker until we have at least 10 or games under our belt. The rules give a fun, fast game.

Offline gorillacrab

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Re: Rebels and patriots skirmisher question
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2019, 04:33:21 PM »
Judging from the comments as a whole "the rules are working" so players aren't seeing a big need to tweak the skirmisher traits. I had asked the question because of some discussion months ago about the "gamey" fix of having Skirmisher muskets only shoot 12". This is generally justified by the point that often untrained militia didn't have the training for volleys to be truly effective at extreme ranges.
In terms of semantics, "militia" might have been a better choice for these troops than "skirmisher" - skirmishers conjure up the traits of Napoleonic skirmishers who were highly trained (and fire FARTHER in some rules!). Of course in RaP, this quality of soldier is covered by the Light Infantry designation (and very good troops they are).

Given their fighting preferences and style, not giving Native troops the Fire order (as stated, they can only shoot 1/2 dice when skirmishing) makes sense as well. These fighters harassed and then charged into combat when the enemy was vulnerable, so the rule makes sense.

Offline vtsaogames

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Re: Rebels and patriots skirmisher question
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2019, 02:08:13 AM »
Given their fighting preferences and style, not giving Native troops the Fire order (as stated, they can only shoot 1/2 dice when skirmishing) makes sense as well. These fighters harassed and then charged into combat when the enemy was vulnerable, so the rule makes sense.

Here I must differ. I think this is the cinematic take on Indians. They out shot their opponents until the enemy started to run. Only then did they charge. The great number of Braddock's troops were slain by musket fire rather than tomahawks. Ditto the US Army at the Wabash, some 40 years later. In both cases Indian losses were a fraction of those suffered by the regulars. The rules do state they are designed for cinematic effect.

Offline Bryanbowdell

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Re: Rebels and patriots skirmisher question
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2019, 09:48:24 PM »
We've found that 2points for skirmishers has been a bit "cheap" compared to paying 6points for light infantry. 

In the last game we restricted skirmishers to just the skirmish action.  It did seem to work but another couple of games will be needed to see how it goes.

Offline gorillacrab

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Re: Rebels and patriots skirmisher question
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2019, 12:15:05 AM »
We've found that 2points for skirmishers has been a bit "cheap" compared to paying 6points for light infantry.

In the last game we restricted skirmishers to just the skirmish action.  It did seem to work but another couple of games will be needed to see how it goes.


Okay, that is exactly the kind of game-tested opinion I find interesting - that even with the reduced range, you find the skirms cheap cost makes them workable.

Offline Bryanbowdell

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Re: Rebels and patriots skirmisher question
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2019, 10:25:35 PM »
Just had another game again restricting the skirmish units to only using the skirmish action. 

This did seem to work well, they screened my line troops and made a nuisance of themselves from cover, eventually a unit of light infantry and a rival sharpshooter unit did see them off but I feel that they reflect skirmishes well this way for the 2points you pay for them.

Offline Ceeteegee

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Re: Rebels and patriots skirmisher question
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2019, 09:28:14 PM »
Bryan's skirmishes were a thundering bloody nuisance. They both slowed me down and depleted my forces to the extent that I was never going to achieve the game objective. Driving them off proved difficult and expensive. 
Limiting them to skirmish action means they can perform these tasks well enough without making them too powerful.
Aggressive skirmishers were also considered to replicate skirmishers charging depleted units.
 (I'd also make a case for timid militia to be able to evade if charged or flanked).
My two cents.


Offline Bryanbowdell

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Re: Rebels and patriots skirmisher question
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2019, 10:24:43 PM »
I think timid militia with evade as an option would be a viable a r representative unit, .......no match for skirmishing French chasseurs though!

Offline Pan Marek

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Re: Rebels and patriots skirmisher question
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2019, 07:53:23 PM »
I too noticed this on my first read of the rules.  Note that they make American riflemen of the AWI skirmishers, and that means they have less range than muskets!!.
I cannot understand this decision.  Many other rules give skirmishers more range than line infantry, who given that they volley and don't "aim", have shorter range.

I'm not yet ready to modify the rules, but when that time comes, giving the skirmishers the same or more range is on the top of my list.  Note that as the rules are, all the skirmishers are good for is to screen fire for the main body.  They get shot down before they are in range.

Offline vodkafan

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Re: Rebels and patriots skirmisher question
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2019, 08:52:27 PM »
I too noticed this on my first read of the rules.  Note that they make American riflemen of the AWI skirmishers, and that means they have less range than muskets!!.
I cannot understand this decision.  Many other rules give skirmishers more range than line infantry, who given that they volley and don't "aim", have shorter range.

I'm not yet ready to modify the rules, but when that time comes, giving the skirmishers the same or more range is on the top of my list.  Note that as the rules are, all the skirmishers are good for is to screen fire for the main body.  They get shot down before they are in range.

Haven't got my copy of the rules handy to check, but I believe that you can upgrade any unit (including skirmishers) to "sharpshooters" for an extra 2 points?
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Offline vtsaogames

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Re: Rebels and patriots skirmisher question
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2019, 03:22:48 PM »
Good shooters for 2 points, sharpshooters for 4 points.

Skirmishing rifle sharpshooters are well worth the points, and irritating to face.