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Author Topic: Aventine Early Byzantines! Extra Heavy, Heavy and Medium Infantry  (Read 20242 times)

Offline delbruck

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 281
Re: Aventine Miniatures Early Byzantines!
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2020, 09:10:27 PM »
Yes, I think the shorter spears look better (and they might be more historical for this period).

Will we see infantry in a standing pose with upright spear, or foot with alternate protection such as padded, scale, or lamallae armor?

Offline Atheling

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Re: Aventine Miniatures Early Byzantines!
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2020, 09:33:31 PM »
It's a tricky one.... what do the sources say if anything?  ???

Offline pallard

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Re: Aventine Miniatures Early Byzantines!
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2020, 04:53:52 PM »
I don't know if there is that many reliable sources around. Primary sources I mean. On the textual side, there is of course Procopius, but he is full of rhetorical disdain for the military detail, while also one-sided for the cavalry-do-the-business faction in his times' military debate. We rarely know from which kind of unit (don't even consider the name of specific units) the infantry he mentions is from. He would speak of spear bearers I suppose (durophoroi). But it has to be verified. For the Heraklian times, one should have a look at Armenian, Syriac as well as Byzantine sources, mostly religious history. Not the kind to be very helpful too.
We also have the later (slightly for some) military tactical manuals which give precise battle formations for the infantry, with spearmen in front, shooters-overhead behind and spear-armed-file-closers. This is for highly trained units however. Was there any available? This is the main question.
The archaeological sources are of much use, if not precisely datable: they show the same kind of short spears as was earlier used by the roman army. However, Germanic dismounted cavalry and maybe bucellarii might keep their kontarion (if the long cavalry spear was already named so) as primary weapons, although this is far from certain. It remains to be proved that the Goths just did that on foot. The framea of old germanic use was one in many weapons of choice for the infantry. And closed ranks shielwall means shoulder to shoulder: try to handle this kind of spear either from over your head or from the flank in such conditions and you'll make a lot of friends amongst your comitatenses!
Philippe

Offline Atheling

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Re: Aventine Miniatures Early Byzantines!
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2020, 05:02:02 PM »
I don't know if there is that many reliable sources around. Primary sources I mean. On the textual side, there is of course Procopius, but he is full of rhetorical disdain for the military detail, while also one-sided for the cavalry-do-the-business faction in his times' military debate. We rarely know from which kind of unit (don't even consider the name of specific units) the infantry he mentions is from. He would speak of spear bearers I suppose (durophoroi). But it has to be verified. For the Heraklian times, one should have a look at Armenian, Syriac as well as Byzantine sources, mostly religious history. Not the kind to be very helpful too.
We also have the later (slightly for some) military tactical manuals which give precise battle formations for the infantry, with spearmen in front, shooters-overhead behind and spear-armed-file-closers. This is for highly trained units however. Was there any available? This is the main question.
The archaeological sources are of much use, if not precisely datable: they show the same kind of short spears as was earlier used by the roman army. However, Germanic dismounted cavalry and maybe bucellarii might keep their kontarion (if the long cavalry spear was already named so) as primary weapons, although this is far from certain. It remains to be proved that the Goths just did that on foot. The framea of old germanic use was one in many weapons of choice for the infantry. And closed ranks shielwall means shoulder to shoulder: try to handle this kind of spear either from over your head or from the flank in such conditions and you'll make a lot of friends amongst your comitatenses!
Philippe

Is there any reference in the sources to how the infantry were to be (ideally) used on the battlefield? That might give us a clue?

If they were to ward off cavalry then perhaps this might give us a clue as to the theoretical length of their weapons?

Offline Aventine

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 336
Re: Aventine Miniatures Early Byzantines!
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2020, 05:28:35 PM »
I have taken the view(rightly or wrongly) that the infantry were just Late Roman pedes until they were found wanting against cavalry. At that point Nares deployed some cavalry to bolster his line(Taginae 552Ad). That was a success so my view is that the longer spears and heavier armour developed after that. For the Early part of this period I intend to use the shorter spears then mix around the mid 6th Century. For later I will stick to the longer jobs.



Cheers
keith

Offline pallard

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  • Posts: 184
Re: Aventine Miniatures Early Byzantines!
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2020, 08:03:57 PM »
There is one very interesting article by Grant Harward that I found on the net:
A defensive offense: infantry tactics of the early Byzantine Army.
You should look at it.
You are right about the late roman tradition, with the peculiarity that it was a kind of swiss knife infantry, when it came to long or middle range fighting. Infantry could throw from heavy spiculum to light plumbatae, including francisca which apparently was a customized weapon. The other issue is about mentions of infantry with both spear and bow, in the later part of the period,  but I suspect another classical influence, the "Immortal" syndrome.
Philippe

Offline Atheling

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Re: Aventine Miniatures Early Byzantines!
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2020, 08:45:35 PM »
There is one very interesting article by Grant Harward that I found on the net:
A defensive offense: infantry tactics of the early Byzantine Army.
You should look at it.
You are right about the late roman tradition, with the peculiarity that it was a kind of swiss knife infantry, when it came to long or middle range fighting. Infantry could throw from heavy spiculum to light plumbatae, including francisca which apparently was a customized weapon. The other issue is about mentions of infantry with both spear and bow, in the later part of the period,  but I suspect another classical influence, the "Immortal" syndrome.
Philippe

Thanks Pallard  8)

I've found it, here's a link to the free pdf:
file:///C:/Users/darre/Pictures/MEDIEVAL%20MINIATURES%20PAINTINGS%20&%20PICS/BATTLE%20OF%20DARA%20SASSANIAN%20&%20mIDDLE%20iMPERIAL%20rOME/SASSANID%20PAINTED%20UNITS%20ETC/BYZANTINE%20MILITARY%20HISTORY%20A%20Defensive%20Offense_%20Infantry%20Tactics%20of%20the%20Early%20Byzantine%20Army.pdf

I've printed it off so I can digest it the old fashioned way.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 10:04:20 AM by Atheling »

Offline Emperorbaz

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 95
Re: Aventine Miniatures Early Byzantines!
« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2020, 01:50:03 PM »
I have taken the view(rightly or wrongly) that the infantry were just Late Roman pedes until they were found wanting against cavalry. At that point Nares deployed some cavalry to bolster his line(Taginae 552Ad). That was a success so my view is that the longer spears and heavier armour developed after that. For the Early part of this period I intend to use the shorter spears then mix around the mid 6th Century. For later I will stick to the longer jobs.



Cheers
keith

These look just superb!

Offline Atheling

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Re: Aventine Miniatures Early Byzantines!
« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2020, 01:57:19 PM »
These look just superb!

I know!!  :-* :-* :-*

This range has my head spinning in excitement!!  o_o 8)

Offline Atheling

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Re: Aventine Miniatures Early Byzantines!
« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2020, 06:48:58 PM »
A couple of pics of the Archers from the Aventine Facebook page:





I'm using mine as the back rank of the Shieldwall which is four ranks deep. Pics when I get to adding a splash of paint as I'm currently working on the hevier infantry.

Offline aphillathehun

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 522
Re: Aventine Miniatures Early Byzantines!
« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2020, 11:56:43 PM »

Awesome figs!  Bad time for me to be unemployed.  I'd have most of the infantry done already if I had some cash to spend.

Offline Atheling

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Re: Aventine Miniatures Early Byzantines!
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2020, 11:02:19 AM »
Awesome figs!  Bad time for me to be unemployed.  I'd have most of the infantry done already if I had some cash to spend.

Sorry to hear that- not fun.

Offline aphillathehun

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 522
Re: Aventine Miniatures Early Byzantines!
« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2020, 06:55:54 PM »

Thanks for the sympathies. But actually, in this particular instance, apart from having no cash for hobbies, it's been a nice break

Offline Christian

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  • Posts: 2686
  • ... standing on the shoulders of giants.
    • INCLTVS REX - Late Antique wargames blog
Re: Aventine Miniatures Early Byzantines!
« Reply #73 on: May 01, 2020, 03:27:32 AM »
Thanks Pallard  8)

I've found it, here's a link to the free pdf:
file:///C:/Users/darre/Pictures/MEDIEVAL%20MINIATURES%20PAINTINGS%20&%20PICS/BATTLE%20OF%20DARA%20SASSANIAN%20&%20mIDDLE%20iMPERIAL%20rOME/SASSANID%20PAINTED%20UNITS%20ETC/BYZANTINE%20MILITARY%20HISTORY%20A%20Defensive%20Offense_%20Infantry%20Tactics%20of%20the%20Early%20Byzantine%20Army.pdf

I've printed it off so I can digest it the old fashioned way.

I clicked on the link but it didn't work... is this the same article? https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/studiaantiqua/vol7/iss1/6/

As to how we perceive the character of Roman milites, I don't think you can go past Simon James' argument of armies as communities rather than a mechanistic institution: https://traj.openlibhums.org/articles/abstract/10.16995/TRAC1998_14_25/. This article addresses some outdated concepts you see constantly cropping up, and if we're going to delude ourselves with "historical accuracy" in wargames then it's a must-read!
 
These are lovely miniatures from Aventine :) looking forward to seeing more!

Offline Atheling

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11905
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: Aventine Miniatures Early Byzantines!
« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2020, 06:41:25 AM »
I clicked on the link but it didn't work... is this the same article? https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/studiaantiqua/vol7/iss1/6/
Quote

Yeah, that's the same one. i must have downloaded the article and linked to that.

As to how we perceive the character of Roman milites, I don't think you can go past Simon James' argument of armies as communities rather than a mechanistic institution: https://traj.openlibhums.org/articles/abstract/10.16995/TRAC1998_14_25/. This article addresses some outdated concepts you see constantly cropping up, and if we're going to delude ourselves with "historical accuracy" in wargames then it's a must-read!

I'll give that a read later today- thanks :)

 

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