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Author Topic: I painted a few 28mm vikings (brief Ravenfeast report Aug 17)  (Read 12286 times)

Offline Aesthete

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Re: I painted a few 28mm vikings
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2019, 05:05:27 AM »
It's a deal. I'll post mine here for comparison as they become available.

Looking forward to it.
Dispatches from the Miniature Front - my occasionally updated blog

Offline Ruarigh

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Re: I painted a few 28mm vikings
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2019, 04:25:00 PM »
Nice figures. You can never have too many Vikings.

They look great. Never knew that some of them went into battle naked!
There's no evidence that Viking Age berserks went into battle naked at all. Some earlier Germanic warriors appear to have done so, if we accept sources like Tacitus at face value. The misconception that Viking Age berserks fought naked probably stems from people misreading Snorri's statement that they fought without armour, combined with one etymology of Old Norse berserkr deriving it from berr (naked) + serkr (shirt). This etymology is most likely to have meant 'in a bare shirt' i.e. without armour over their shirt.
The greatest revenge you can have on a man that steals your wife is to let him keep her.

Offline Atheling

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Re: I painted a few 28mm vikings
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2019, 04:28:56 PM »
Nice figures. You can never have too many Vikings.
There's no evidence that Viking Age berserks went into battle naked at all. Some earlier Germanic warriors appear to have done so, if we accept sources like Tacitus at face value. The misconception that Viking Age berserks fought naked probably stems from people misreading Snorri's statement that they fought without armour, combined with one etymology of Old Norse berserkr deriving it from berr (naked) + serkr (shirt). This etymology is most likely to have meant 'in a bare shirt' i.e. without armour over their shirt.

Agreed. It's a bit of a modern Urban Myth.

Fun though ;) :)

Offline Ruarigh

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Re: I painted a few 28mm vikings
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2019, 04:40:34 PM »
Yes, it's fun, but a bit on the chilly side for those northern climes!  lol

Offline Aesthete

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Re: I painted a few 28mm vikings
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2019, 06:08:57 PM »
Agreed. It's a bit of a modern Urban Myth.

Fun though ;) :)

Personally I reckon it's not so much a modern myth as an old myth since we do have arhaeological depictions of naked warriors in Scandinavia prior to the viking age. Like this one, dated ~400 CE.



My personal take is that vikings would have stories of people fighting naked (or near naked), but whether it was something that they actually did is more murky. But yeah, I agree they're fun for gaming purposes for sure :)

Offline Ruarigh

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Re: I painted a few 28mm vikings
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2019, 06:26:32 PM »
Personally I reckon it's not so much a modern myth as an old myth since we do have archaeological depictions of naked warriors in Scandinavia prior to the viking age.
Are they lined up for battle or for a ritual on that Gallehus horn you showed? To my mind, the Gallehus horns seem to show rituals in progress more than battles, and we do have some evidence for Vikings getting naked for rituals, such as when pegging out a holmgang area. I really don't think that fighting naked fits with what we know of Viking Age society. It seems to belong more with earlier tribal societies, for which there appears to be more evidence of naked or stripped down warriors.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 07:10:42 PM by Ruarigh »

Offline Atheling

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Re: I painted a few 28mm vikings
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2019, 06:45:44 PM »
Are they lined up for battle or for a ritual on that Gallehus horn you showed? To my mind, the Gallehus horns seem to show rituals in progress more than battles, and we do have some evidence for them getting naked for rituals, such as when pegging out a holmgang area. I really don't think that fighting naked fits with what we know of Viking Age society. It seems to belong more with earlier tribal societies, for which there appears to be more evidence of naked or stripped down warriors.

Yep. I don't mean to poop on the parade but I have to say I agree.

You would certainly need an expert in 'ancient' Scandinavian artefacts to decipher the meaning of that object.

Still, there's nothing at all to stop you using Beserkers in your army if you so wish. I've done it once or twice myself in friendly games.

Offline Ruarigh

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Re: I painted a few 28mm vikings
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2019, 07:10:10 PM »
Still, there's nothing at all to stop you using Berserkers in your army if you so wish. I've done it once or twice myself in friendly games.

Yes, I'm not saying don't use them. Do what makes you happy in your own games. I sometimes use them myself, despite having argued strongly against the hype about unstoppable, naked, berserk warriors tripping out on mushrooms.

Offline Atheling

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Re: I painted a few 28mm vikings
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2019, 07:16:17 PM »
Yes, I'm not saying don't use them. Do what makes you happy in your own games. I sometimes use them myself, despite having argued strongly against the hype about unstoppable, naked, berserk warriors tripping out on mushrooms.

I completely concur. on both points.

I'm in agreement with you :)

Offline Aesthete

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Re: I painted a few 28mm vikings
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2019, 03:51:07 AM »
Ruarigh and Atheling, it is not my intention to get into a protracted internet argument since I'm sure you both know what you're talking about. When I keep replying to your points, the intended spirit is one of pleasant banter on a topic of mutual interest (maybe with a few pints in hand, if you're so inclined) rather than a "no, here's why you're wrong and let me just nitpick this one more thing." Please take my comments in that light - that is how I take yours. But this being the internet, I wanted to state it plainly because sometimes tone doesn't come across the way it's intended :)

Bottom line: yes, I agree with you that units of naked berserkers are probably quite unrealistic/ ahistorical. When I mention the Gallehus horn as evidence of naked warriors in ~400 CE Scandinavia I was paraphrasing (and hotlinking the image to the site of) the National Museum of Denmark (in fact, I linked the relevant page upthread) - my assumption is they're speaking from a place of expertise. I do agree with Ruarigh that it is quite possible a depiction of ritual nakedness, for what it's worth.

To clarify my statement, though, I didn't intend to make the claim that the evidence proves that naked warriors were part of standard military tactics in the viking age or some such, but rather to support the notion that the image of the naked warrior was known at the time. Basically I think it possible and even likely (but don't claim to know it as a fact) that the idea of the warrior so consumed by battle rage that he'd charge into battle naked was known to the vikings. That's about as far as I'm going with it. If others disagree, that's fair enough as far as I'm concerned.

And don't worry, I'll follow your advice and use my little fellers where I think it appropriate (that's after all the main point) - and I probably won't think it appropriate for games intended to be "strictly historical" :)

As an aside, the "they're tripping on mushrooms" thing, that was apparently a theory concocted in 1784 by a priest named Ödmann. It's discussed in the other article I posted upthread, by a fellow with a Ph. D in "viking stuff" from the university of Oslo. I think it was pretty decent on the topic.

... and with that I'm going to grab a beer from the fridge. I'd offer to get you both some if we were having the location face to face. And a thank you both for the conversation. I can't actually paint this evening as some relatives of my wife's dropped in and they're all sitting chatting around the table I usually paint at, but at least I can chat about the stuff with you gentlemen :)

Offline Atheling

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Re: I painted a few 28mm vikings
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2019, 04:20:32 AM »
True. The internet is not the best often obfuscate nuance. :)

« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 06:59:32 AM by Atheling »

Offline Harry Faversham

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Re: I painted a few 28mm vikings
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2019, 06:47:35 AM »
You see it today with footie nutters. They rip their shirts off, beat there bare chests like King Kong, then charge Plod who's wearing full riot gear. Substitute extra strength lager/wizz for magic mushrooms and job's a good 'un!

>:(
"Wot did you do in the war Grandad?"

"I was with Harry... At The Bridge!"

Offline FierceKitty

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Re: I painted a few 28mm vikings
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2019, 08:00:30 AM »
There's even a story in Plutarch about a Spartan youth who came rushing out naked from his bath in an emergency, joined the fight, was instrumental in acchieving victory (he was very good looking, and gleaming with oil in the torchlight, so there was reputedly some hope or fear that a god was joining the fight), and afterwards was decorated for heroism and then heavily fined for risking his life like an idiot instead of at least grabbing his shield first.

If super-disciplined Spartans could fight skyclad, I have no trouble believing that some madhead berserkir may have done likewise.
The laws of probability do not apply to my dice in wargames or to my finesses in bridge.

Offline Ruarigh

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Re: I painted a few 28mm vikings
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2019, 09:46:20 AM »
Ruarigh and Atheling, it is not my intention to get into a protracted internet argument since I'm sure you both know what you're talking about. When I keep replying to your points, the intended spirit is one of pleasant banter on a topic of mutual interest (maybe with a few pints in hand, if you're so inclined) rather than a "no, here's why you're wrong and let me just nitpick this one more thing." Please take my comments in that light - that is how I take yours. But this being the internet, I wanted to state it plainly because sometimes tone doesn't come across the way it's intended :)
Agreed. I've been enjoying this discussion and I appreciate you taking the time to clarify things. Too often tone and nuance gets lost in the rush to post.

I'm actually interested in what evidence other people think is relevant and why, so seeing the Gallehus horn cited was of interest to me. I've been collecting nuggets like this for some time for a medievalism paper I may one day write about why people think the way they do about berserkir.

If you're interested, there's a whole raft of pathologies devoted to berserksgangr, starting in the seventeenth century with berserkir being black magicians in the thrall of the demon Odin all the way through to PTSD and genetics as the most recent explanations. Ödmann's mushroom theory is just one among many that follow the latest research of the time in anthropology, medicine, psychology, etc., and none of them can be directly related to the medieval descriptions of berserkir in the sagas. My favourite is the Norwegian priest who blamed it on a bad hangover. Gotta wonder if he was trying to get his parishioners to drink less. I'm of the view that berserksgangr was performative. The narrative structure of berserkr episodes in Old Norse literature suggests that the medieval audience understood it that way. I would suggest that the Viking Age reality was probably closer to that than to modern depictions of frenzied warriors: i.e. Old Norse berserkr does not mean the same thing as present day English berserker. If you want to do some deep reading on the topic, you might find this PhD thesis of interest: https://eprints.nottingham.ac.uk/28819/

Offline FierceKitty

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Re: I painted a few 28mm vikings
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2019, 10:58:40 AM »
Started today. 1st bondi in foreground, 1st beserkir in background.

 

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