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Author Topic: To Ur is Human - A review  (Read 2079 times)

Offline OB

  • scientist
  • Posts: 247
Re: To Ur is Human - A review
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2019, 11:30:22 AM »
I've been thinking about using To Ur for the Late Bronze Age and have just posted a blog about it.  Of course the author will be able to say if I'm on the right track or not.  In the meantime it will serve to start the discussion. If it's of interest here is the link.

https://youdonotknowthenorth.blogspot.com

Offline Trebian

  • student
  • Posts: 12
Re: To Ur is Human - A review
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2019, 03:45:57 PM »
I think those ideas will work, and I've made a couple of comments on your blog I won't repeat here. The proof will be in the playtesting, and if you like what you get on the table top. I'm in line with you on late Bronze Age Chariot warfare. I wargamed with Ian R-L for many years, and did the layout, playtesting, rules re-writing and some of the graphic design for "Call it Qids", his take in Kadesh which was  published by the SoA, back when they did games. He is the "Ian" referred to in "To Ur"s Acknowledgements as the man who made me think of Fight/Fright/Flight as a mechanism I could use.

Offline syrinx0

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • mastermind
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  • Posts: 1368
Re: To Ur is Human - A review
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2019, 06:51:05 PM »
Just ordered the rules. Very interested in your extensions OB. This seems like a great reason to start a Sea Peoples project...  lol
2019: A:611 P:108; 2018: -47; 2017: -100; 2016:+1; 2015:-356; 2014:-164 2013:-418;  2012:-159


Offline OB

  • scientist
  • Posts: 247
Re: To Ur is Human - A review
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2019, 11:56:12 PM »
Thanks, I was hoping they might prove useful. 

It is I think, it certainly got my Sea Peoples out of their box.  I need to paint more chariots I thought I'd painted more than I have.  Once you have the rules do let us know if any Late Bronze Age ideas come to mind.

Offline syrinx0

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Re: To Ur is Human - A review
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2019, 04:18:20 AM »
This period is a new interest for me, so I have quite a bit to learn. 

Offline Trebian

  • student
  • Posts: 12
Re: To Ur is Human - A review
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2019, 10:25:22 AM »
Seems like I missed an open goal here, only writing rules for a period I understood. Hold on a few months and I'll have "It's Kadesh out there!" available.  ;)

Offline SteveBurt

  • mad scientist
  • Posts: 738
Re: To Ur is Human - A review
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2019, 12:51:48 PM »
I notice you credit Ian Russell Lowell. There was a very interesting set of bronze age rules by him entitled 'Rein Bow Warriors' published years ago in Slingshot, but only the first part ever appeared. Shame as there were some neat ideas in there.

Offline Trebian

  • student
  • Posts: 12
Re: To Ur is Human - A review
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2019, 02:56:15 PM »
@SteveBurt: I was privileged to wargame with Ian for many years before his retirement to the West Country. I have sat and discussed Egyptian and Hittite chariot tactics with him at great length, both in his kitchen and in Shedquarters. It was Phil Steele's ambition when he was SOA President to have Ian write and contribute more on the period, but getting Ian to deliver anything is like herding cats. "Call it Qids" happened because we helped refine Ian's ideas, and I sat and wrote the rules down and did the layout and project managed Ian closely to delivery. I've attended play test sessions of "Reinbow Warriors"over the years from round bases to iku sticks to whatever iteration they are on now. I don't think they will ever be finished. I'm not sure Ian is doing much wargaming now. I'm really looking forwards to his book on Muwatallish, but I suspect that will never be finished.

Offline SteveBurt

  • mad scientist
  • Posts: 738
Re: To Ur is Human - A review
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2019, 06:15:41 PM »
Thanks - 'To Ur is Human' arrived today and I certainly think it would work for Egyptians v Hittites, which is what I have.
Looking at OB's ideas and yours, I summarised the changes as:

All chariots can wheel in square 1
All chariots can charge without dicing
All chariots can wheel before charging
All chariots can have one free wheel per move.  They must dice for any subsequent wheels.
All chariots can evade infantry charges
Chariots are two stand bow-armed units and fire with the massed archer stat of 2 dice per stand.
3 man chariots gain +1 dice in combat with 2 man chariots, but are slowed by their extra crewman, so lose the free wheel per move.

(That last one is my idea; we don't really know what the third man was for, but Ramses goes on about it and implies it was some sort of sneaky trick, which suggests it was effective)

I already have a suitable squared mat for 'To the Strongest', and have played Egyptians v Hittites with those rules, so it will be interesting to try 'To Ur is Human: the Qadesh variant' and see what happens.

Offline Trebian

  • student
  • Posts: 12
Re: To Ur is Human - A review
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2019, 06:33:18 PM »
"The Third Man mystery"

Ah. Yes. Mmmm. I've seen the walk carvings at Luxor and Abu Simbel and I don't rightly  know. I think the carvings were made by people who weren't at the battle, and were carving what they were told.

My view is that the Hittites are moving chariot runners (I think that's Ian's as well), and that they were dropped off to form some kind of skirmish screen or general irritant to their opponents. Another option would be to permit a pair of chariot units to drop off a light infantry unit to attack their opponents (in the flank???) once combat has started. Don't know. If I was writing Egyptian/Hittite might not have started from here (which would be a shame, as this looks like it is shaping up alright).

Keep us updated, please. Do you blog anywhere?


Offline SteveBurt

  • mad scientist
  • Posts: 738
Re: To Ur is Human - A review
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2019, 06:45:05 PM »
My theory is that the third man hopped out of the chariot during a melee and chucked javelins and generally made a nuisance of himself. Also, my Foundry Hittite chariots have chaps wielding impressive looking long spears so I feel they ought to be good in melee.
Someone is now going to cite the book by Mary Littauer and Joust Crouwel which supposedly proves that you can't use a long spear from a chariot; except it doesn't. They state early on that you can't use a spear from a chariot. Then every time a picture of someone doing just that appears (there are quite a lot of them, mostly Mycenean types fencing with long spears), they say "since we have proved that you can't use a spear from a chariot, please ignore this picture".

Offline Trebian

  • student
  • Posts: 12
Re: To Ur is Human - A review
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2019, 06:47:54 PM »
Ha ha!

I published a book on the 1469 Battle of Edgcote earlier in the year where a lot of my thesis was that people have just ignored evidence because they thought it wasn't true, and came to other conclusions based on a made up idea. There's a lot of it about.

Offline OB

  • scientist
  • Posts: 247
Re: To Ur is Human - A review
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2019, 07:27:17 PM »
Yeah, I have no doubt that it's possible to 'spear fight' from a chariot.  I found Drews idea of chariot jousting which he used to dismiss spear combat a bit of a red herring.  Misdirection if you like.

As to the third or fourth man I've just written but not yet posted some To Ur thoughts on why four horse chariots came into use. 

The additional warriors clearly add something that as seen as an improvement.  It's either additional missile capacity or greater melee capability.  Chariot Runners catching a lift are easy to envisage too.

The additional horses are so speed can be maintained.  I'm currently painting up an illustrative four horse chariot to add to the piece.

Offline SteveBurt

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Re: To Ur is Human - A review
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2019, 10:16:53 PM »
The realyy intetesting ones are the three horse Assyrian chariots. Some people refuse to believe these existed in spite of abundant evidence. The four horse heavies definitely seem to have been terror weapons since by then they had good cavalry.

Offline OB

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  • Posts: 247
Re: To Ur is Human - A review
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2019, 11:21:24 PM »
We know the two horse carts were quite light in their construction.  I'm assuming the bigger carts followed the same pattern?  If they did then the crew supply most of the weight to be carried.  For each extra crew man you have to add a horse to maintain the draft power weight ratio.  Do you think that is on the right lines?