Battle Companies - Middle Earth SG Question and Concern.

[Mr. White]

I'm interested in doing some small skirmishes in Middle Earth and it sounds like the Battle Companies system is the way to go.

My question is... Does it have a decent number of scenarios? I don't want to make up my own, but just have a decent number to choose from.

My concern is...the Battle Company books is $50, but the listing says you need the MESG rulebook ($60), then either the LotR Army book ($50) or the Hobbit Army book ($50) depending on which battle company you play.

So...the _cheapest_ to get into this regarding the rules is...$160? If the game rules or model profiles aren't in the BC book...what the heck is in there for $50? The Mordhiem rulebook (RIP) had the rules, profiles, scenarios, and campaign all in one book.

GW has done so well with AoS and 40k lately...what the heck is going on with MESG?

[Elbows]

Not to derail, but GW has not done "well" lately with regard to almost any book/rule release.  Necromunda was slowly released over a course of six books over a year...before all the gangs/rules were out, etc.  So, it would not surprise me if you need 3-4 books in order to play it.  I'd like to be wrong, but that's very much GW's drip-feed DLC methodology at this time.

[Mr. White]

Well...I didn't mean for this to be bash GW. I called out AoS and 40K specifically, because they are the other two marquee GW titles and their rules were free (not sure if they still are) or like $10 for a long time. One just needed the Army book for their desired faction and would be good to go. Granted there are those General Compendium Annuals or whatever they were called, but that's optional.

So, why were AoS and 40K easy to get into but MESG is over $150 just to get the rules? That's a huge barrier and not consistent with the other two.

[Commander Carnage]

 You only need the main rulebook and the battle companies book. The battle companies book contains a large number of companies and scenarios. Well worth the money.

[Coenus Scaldingus]

You only need the main rulebook and the battle companies book. The battle companies book contains a large number of companies and scenarios. Well worth the money.

The Battle Companies book doesn't contain profiles for the miniatures in those companies.

To be fair, that last part cannot be really blamed on GW, as there are a pretty huge range of figures in the range, and more or less all warriors exist in the Battle Companies system. In the same way, the fact that the core rules are not in the book is because those not only cover quite some pages, but the BC system also contains the heroic actions, monsters (with their relevant special rules), magic spells (which have specific ways of casting, maintaining and resisting them), or simply the particular rules for scenery, cavalry, etc. There is genuinely no way that could all be contained in one book without either making it massive (and have a lot of information duplicated with books owned by existing players), or leaving out a lot of it.

The Mordheim book contained 6 factions, with about 5-6 profiles in each, all using the same progression chart, and 9 scenarios. BC has 38 companies with maybe slightly fewer different warriors in each (it's based on model availability, so Gondor has many options, Goblin Town fewer), 8 progression charts, 18 scenarios, and 2 different campaign systems. Plus some mercenaries, items and other additions to your warband.

I agree it's a lot to get started, which is a shame as the system is otherwise great for new players (many companies start with less than 1 sprue of warriors, so a box and one pack of a few types of elites will be enough for entire campaigns). In theory, looking for an older version of the rules is a reasonable option to save costs within a group, as the rules are comparatively stable (though different enough you will want everybody to use the same rules; it's just that the experience won't be much worse if using an older edition). One advantage is that the core rules and existing profiles should remain unchanged for years to come, much more so than in either of the two Warhammers. Finally, you can use Lonely Knight's terrific army builder excel sheet to at least get the profiles and points costs, though there may be the occasional error (which are slowly being ironed out): http://www.lonelyknight.0fees.net/

[Mr. White]

I appreciate the more concise run-down Coenus, can you give me a bit of an overview on BC compared to say, the aforementioned Mordheim?

Is it possible to build a few smaller BCs and just have some fun one-off skirmish games with buddies? Is the rule-set fairly light for casual play?

[SBMiniaturesGuy]

My preferred system for gaming Middle Earth are the Dux Britanniarum dark ages rules from Two Fat Lardies, using the "Dux Arda" fanmod:



https://sbminisguy.wordpress.com/2019/01/04/dux-arda-gaming-middle-earth-with-dux-britanniarum/

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

I think a number of existing rules systems are easily adapted to Middle Earth.  Most fighting would fit any historical set of rules as magic and extraordinary creatures are actually quite rare.  In the case of "magic" it is also very subtle.  Although some of the GW game reports are quite good, I think they seem to have more in common with the movies than the books. 
Apart from Dux Brit I think you could also consider Dragons Rampant and once they come out Clash of Spears could probably also work.  Could Vanguard be adapted?

[armchairgeneral]

Saga Age of Magic and Warlords of Erehwon are also worth considering.

[joe5mc]

If you are willing to do some work yourself, you could probably get away with buying the old LOTR 'Blue Book'. It has the rules and a lot of profiles.  Then you could get the Battle Companies book. You wouldn't be able to use all of the battle companies, but you could use the main ones.  You could then decide whether to invest in the rest of it.

Truth is though, it's not an easy commitment for a skirmish game...

On the other hand, it does have a good number of scenarios, and the warband progression system is fun.

[Coenus Scaldingus]

I appreciate the more concise run-down Coenus, can you give me a bit of an overview on BC compared to say, the aforementioned Mordheim?

Is it possible to build a few smaller BCs and just have some fun one-off skirmish games with buddies? Is the rule-set fairly light for casual play?

The important thing to realise here is that the main game system simply uses the Middle-earth SBG rules (formerly LotR/Hobbit). Those rules happen to work as well for 10 as they do for 100 models, the latter just taking more time to get play through a game. If your main interest is in playing one-off games, I'd say you are not much worse of by simply playing the normal game, rather than BC specifically. In that context, all that BC adds are some scenarios, but one of the main goals in those is to gain experience for the soldiers - only relevant for campaigns. I suppose you could incorporate some of the extra add-ons (BC-specific wargear), but whenever those are relevant for e.g. post-game survival, that's irrelevant in one-off games. Overall, I'd say the normal rules are probably better, because in BC the characters have to earn special rules (which make the game more interesting), while in normal games you just select some figures that have those rules as part of their profile. I guess you could use the points costs associated with the upgrades (used to calculate the warband rating) to build your own specific characters from scratch using those BC rules, but I've never seen it played that way!

Normal Middle-earth SBG is a pretty elegant ruleset. The real basics are pretty intuitive, simple and fast. Shooting and fighting requires just two dice rolls, and combats are broken down in individual duels. Not unlike Mordheim, there are some movement mechanics with models able to climb (and fall), as well as jump obstacles or swim. These can be clunky in large games, but add much when having just a dozen models per side. The real meat (and the difficult decisions) of the game are introduced with heroes. Each has a limited supply of "Might" to spend on adjusting dice rolls as well as for performing special actions. Magic is similarly detailed, with a limited store of points to spend on casting or resisting (if a model is directly targetted). Cavalry and monsters also have specific rules that really make them behave differently, and in recent editions they have introduced increased variation in the use of many specific weapons (rather Mordheim-esque in a way), which works best in small games.

I've seen people say it's one of the best systems ever produced by GW, and I would not disagree with that statement. It's a good balance between offering choices and remaining simple, it's fast enough that you could play two games in an evening when the forces aren't too big (30ish per side, BC-style games could be played under an hour including the post-game rolls when doing campaigns). And it's Middle-earth, with a largely Perry-sculpted range...
As said, you can more or less make the games as big or small as you like. Games can be the Fellowship versus the Ringwraiths, or against a horde of goblins, or the entire Battle of the Pelennor Fields, but also an unnamed Dwarf king and a handful his bodyguard being ambushed by a pair of cave trolls.

[Mr. White]

Hmmm...you may be right in that the complexities of BC, designed for campaign and development, isn’t what I’m looking for. I just want to game the occasional skirmish in ME.

TBH, I like the look and contents of the very first GW LotR box set for the Fellowship of the Ring.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3563/lord-rings-fellowship-ring

Two questions in it:
1) are the rules in it still good enough or has almost two decades of refinement produced a cleaner rule set and I should still look for a more modern book. If so, which one?
2) how difficult would it be to add or subtract models to the scenarios to season the games a little?

Thanks again for everyone’s replies!

[Coenus Scaldingus]

TBH, I like the look and contents of the very first GW LotR box set for the Fellowship of the Ring.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3563/lord-rings-fellowship-ring

Two questions in it:
1) are the rules in it still good enough or has almost two decades of refinement produced a cleaner rule set and I should still look for a more modern book. If so, which one?

Several of the older editions are pretty serviceable, but I wouldn't go back as far as that one or the Two Towers - the game was basically expanded every edition, and the first one did not even have rules for cavalry if I am not mistaken. The Return of the King book could be alright, though I'd recommend the blue book with the One Ring on the cover (released as hardback and A5 softcover in a starter set - as recommended by joe5mc above). It was the standard set for a long time and contains all the (largely unchanged) basics - and profiles for the things released up until that point. Moreover, a bunch of great supplements were released between then and the Hobbit, all of which will thus work with those rules.

2) how difficult would it be to add or subtract models to the scenarios to season the games a little?

Not sure exactly what you mean here, but if you are looking to modify the narrative (historical) scenarios: it depends. In some books, scenarios mention both "historical" participants and give points values, so you can just make both sides proportionally bigger or smaller. Some scenarios won't work if too few figures exist to take objectives, or too many figures start cluttering the board, while in other cases you can double the participants without issue. It's also worth noting that the existing scenarios vary significantly in scale: I've played a Pelennor Fields battle on a 8'x8' table that took an entire day (the Return of the King "journey book", as well as the tiny Maggot's Farm scenario (Scouring of the Shire) that has the eponymous Hobbit farmer with his 3 trusted dogs facing off against 5 ruffians - and that's all you need!

[MrHlaine]

having played every iteration of the game, since it was my starting point in the hobby back then, I'd suggest trying to go with the latest iteration of the rules.

-as mentioned before you can accesso the profiles and point costs using the spreadsheet above or things like battlescribe.

-the hobbit SBG rulebook added a lot of options and rules for weapons and heroic actions/monsters special actions thus adding a ton of depth to a game that revolves a lot around those type of miniatures.

-the middle earth sbg (the latest one) is the streamlined and optimized/fixed version of the rules above. It was made by people that deeply care for the game and have listened to many years of gamers feedback. It really enhances the game imo.

-the additional rules come in really handy if you want to operate on a skirmish/warband level. A troll is much scarier if it can throw you fighters around for example, and different weapons could lead to different combat situations/tactics.

Plus if you start in only one of the two "periods" you already get a ton of profiles in a single book and you can still expand later if you want to.

[Mr. White]

Saga Age of Magic and Warlords of Erehwon are also worth considering.

These two are now on my radar. How do they compare against MESG at the ~20model per side level? That's the space I want to game in.