The Mandalorian - Spoilers thread

[Exiledadmiral]

Yeah the Deathtroopers have a real gravitas to them. And I agree with your assessment of the top villains too, Moff Gideon and Werner Herzog's character, whose name slips my mind, had a real menace to them that was completely lacking in the newer films.

I watched Rise of the Skywalker last night now it's on Disney+ and enjoyed it, but it's not a patch on the Mandalorian or Rogue One.

[Grumpy Gnome]

Whilst I enjoyed elements of Rise of Skywalker whilst I watched it, the good bits carrying me through the rest of it, after I came out of the theater and thought about it the film left me increasingly hollow. Like junk food that only temporarily satisfied my hunger. Whereas I have seen A New Hope more times than I can remember I have no desire to rewatch Rise of Skywalker. Quite the opposite, the more I think about it the more the movie disappoints.

t may be a bit selfish but the tv show feels to me like the kind of thing me and my friends would come up with when we were kids back when the original trilogy had come out. Same with Rogue One. Solo, not so much. But the last trilogy only briefly catches onto some nostalgic moments, for example “Chewie, we’re home”. It feels like the movies were made by someone who was told what Star Wars was about rather than someone who had experienced it. Or at least experienced it like I did. For me as a kid the Force was like an introduction to extreme Zen Buddhism rather than the later Midichlorian concept which turned into basically mutant superpowers by the last film.

What I can not really figure out is how a gritty hardboiled sci-fi Wild West Samurai Action Adventure can feel more hopeful, more charmingly optimistic  than the latest trilogy as well as Star Trek Discovery and Picard. I remember thinking the JJ Abrams Films felt more like Star Wars films than Trek films. But his Star Wars films have been exceedingly disappointing if not as outrageously bad as the Rian Johnson disaster.

It is probably my own cultural baggage as a child of the 70’s and 80’s but I commonly find movies and tv shows lately to be filled with bitter, mean spirited and ultimately unlikeable characters.  This is why some shows, like the recent Marvel movies and the Mandalorian really please me.

And it is not just down to the Directors or IP’s and their age. The last Indiana Jones movie and the latest additions to the Aliens/Predator franchises for example. Ridley Scott created a masterpiece with Alien. A film every single cinematography student should consider essential study. But at this point it feels like Scott has lost his way. Maybe success has a way of spoiling a Director? I feel George Lucas and Peter Jackson lost their way for example.

One thing I loved about the Mandalorian was how it touched on a subject that I found depressingly dealt with in Solo....droids as people. I have hated how Star Wars seems to be quite content to treat droids as slaves. They are seen tortured, seen to display fear, seen to have self awareness. I can not help but wonder how that lays a foundation for some to believe how future AI should be treated. I absolutely hate how the Trade Federation droids are shown as some sort of beings to bully for comedic value.

I think when kids watch movies or tv shows like Star Wars and Star Trek it can create a foundation of moral values that affects them later in life. These are our contemporary mythologies. They are more than just mindless entertainment and they should be treated as such.

[Supercollider]

Mandalorian is some of the best SW stuff ever made, IMHO.  Terrific gaming potential, too.  Anyone see the last series of the Clone Wars?  It lagged a little in the middle, but overall I thought it was a terrific way to wrap it up.  Ashoka Tano is one of he best SW creations outside the main movies.

[Cubs]

Yeah, I loved the first season and am greedily awaiting season 2 airing in the UK. I understand the Tattoine episode was one of the less popular ones from the series, but I literally squealed with excitement when I saw the cantina. I can't separate the TV programme from my nostalgia and I'm just soaking it all in. But I am one of life's optimists. I accept imperfection and prefer to suck the joy from things. But then I'm on the outside of a bottle of merlot right now, so perhaps I'm just in a really good mood.

Jon Favreau seems to be new wunderkind who can do no wrong. Considering The Mandalorian partially replaced the cancelled Boba Fett movie, I expect (and hope) to see a lot more of Jon Favreau's work in the Star Wars universe, on both big and little screens. Taika Waititi (the director and voice of the IG droid) has been linked to further Star Wars films. The Skywalker Saga may be wrapped up, but there's no way any studio is going to turn its back on such a popular and lucrative franchise. The Empire Strikes Back was always my favourite (I saw it before I saw Star Wars because I was so young) and none of the other films came close to capturing the magic of the original trilogy … but that's okay. They are still there. I like all the films (even Attack of the Clones) and maybe, just maybe, someone can now grab the Star Wars universe, write their own saga and be able to skilfully craft the story arc without having to cram it around the framework of someone else's work (or clumsily shove in prequels that eventually join up their threads to existing movies).

I don't understand what it is about Star Wars, I'm not a sci-fi fan as such, but I just adore Star Wars. I can't get enough of it.

[has.been]

Long time ago someone said Star wars isn't Sci-Fi
it's Space Opera.
Sci-Fi will go into details about how you jump to light speed.
Space Opera has, 'It ain't like dusting crops, boy!'
Maybe that is why I (& you Cubs) like Star Wars.
I saw the first film. A large space ship seemed to come  onto the screen over our heads.
It was firing backwards, then... an even bigger space ship came over our heads, chasing it.
From that moment I was hooked.

[Cubs]

I saw the first film. A large space ship seemed to come  onto the screen over our heads.
It was firing backwards, then... an even bigger space ship came over our heads, chasing it.
From that moment I was hooked.

They use a hybrid technique in The Mandalorian don't they? Where they film models of the various space-ships, augmented with CGI, as opposed to the 3 prequels where it was pretty much pure CGI. Maybe that helps explain why it just seems so visually authentic and closer to the original films?

[CookAndrewB]

I didn't mind later Star Wars films. I like action, I don't need to know details of interstellar politics, and I find the "Stormtroopers can't shoot" trope to be quite charming. Plot armor is a heck of a thing, and it doesn't just exist in the Star Wars universe. What I loved about Rise of Skywalker was that the force suddenly became BIG. As a kid, that's what I wanted to see. Not the force as a way to just choke someone who is mouthy, or pick up a stick, but yank a ship out of the sky or project your being across the galaxy. That's pretty cool and better matches what my kid brain wanted out of a Jedi. For my money, the Force is at its peak in something like the video game Force Unleashed. Suddenly Darth Vader is straight up terrifying in his power. I'm also a fan of the Dooku and Yoda fight scene because I finally got my answer about what makes Yoda a Jedi Master.

But like I said, I'm easy to please. I like my lasers, explosions, and fast action. If I want a good plot I'll read books. Movies and TV are more about the visuals for me. Mandalorian was visually stunning, even in the more monochromatic sets.

[gamer Mac]

Long time ago someone said Star wars isn't Sci-Fi
it's Space Opera.
Sci-Fi will go into details about how you jump to light speed.
Space Opera has, 'It ain't like dusting crops, boy!'
Maybe that is why I (& you Cubs) like Star Wars.
I saw the first film. A large space ship seemed to come  onto the screen over our heads.
It was firing backwards, then... an even bigger space ship came over our heads, chasing it.
From that moment I was hooked.

that hooked me well, still sends a shiver down my spine when ever I watch it

[mcfonz]

One thing I loved about the Mandalorian was how it touched on a subject that I found depressingly dealt with in Solo....droids as people. I have hated how Star Wars seems to be quite content to treat droids as slaves. They are seen tortured, seen to display fear, seen to have self awareness. I can not help but wonder how that lays a foundation for some to believe how future AI should be treated. I absolutely hate how the Trade Federation droids are shown as some sort of beings to bully for comedic value.

I think when kids watch movies or tv shows like Star Wars and Star Trek it can create a foundation of moral values that affects them later in life. These are our contemporary mythologies. They are more than just mindless entertainment and they should be treated as such.

I see a bit of a double bind here. But I'll get to that.

Having come to the party late with Clone Wars having treated myself to Disney+ I will say that I believe the Mandalorian to be very much Clone Wars in feel. If you haven't seen Clone Wars - do. The droids as slaves theme is pretty much reoccurring - it isn't always spoken, but like all good stories it is with the unspoken too. It also deals with issues around clones that are created purely to fight on their masters demand. In many ways, I like it as it suggests the Jedi have their flaws too.

Now back to the other bit. They are more than just mindless entertainment and should be treated as such.

I find that really quite interesting. The originally trilogy, to me, were actually incredibly simple. It has been said by some critics that A New Hope and Empire were near identical plot wise. With a couple of tweaks or additions. The main difference was the atmosphere and the battle for Hoth. Essentially though it wasn't exactly a new concept.

There is a young hero who is finding his destiny. Up until his meeting with Obi Wan in a New Hope, could be a sci fi dressing of the sword in the stone part of the King Arthur myths. He finds Merlin, and his sword, then his adventures begin. Off they go to rescue a princess. Again, nothing new there. It's a Grimm fairy tale in space. Having read a few of the original Grimm tales recently, I can tell you, they don't all carry morals or lessons and some are rather nightmarish!

So what am I saying? I don't ever watch the original trilogy and question what is going on because it is very much mindless entertainment. When I say that, I mean to say that if you were to watch it and start to question it you would find plenty wonky about it. Alec Guinness wrote in his autobiography autobiography that he felt much of the script was filled with jargon to make it sound technical and therefore sci fi, but by and large didn't actually mean very much.

My views on the latest trilogy are summed up by Mark Kermode's reflection on the Rise of Skywalker - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBqZHsEieyM

The most disappointing thing for me has been the response of some fans. I found all of the movies enjoyable. Are they massively intellectually stimulating to adults? No. Were the original trilogy? No. Did they inspire youngsters in the same way that the old ones did when they were brand new? You bet. I've enjoyed them all. Though I will admit to getting a bit trilogy fatigued. You would have thought, that with the success of the MCU that they would perhaps try to do something similar, bearing in mind Star Wars has had it's own cinematic universe ever since they explored different parts of it in cartoons etc in the 80's and 90's. I enjoyed Rogue One and Solo because there didn't have to be more - not just that they were enjoyable.

[Grumpy Gnome]

I have only seen the First few of episodes of Clone Wars, season 1. I have not seen Rebels nor the other new Star Wars animated shows on Disney+. The prequels put my off Clone Wars but it was repeatedly recommended to me and I have been trying to give it a chance. I dislike the characterization of Anakin so much that it is difficult but I do enjoy a lot of the rest of it, particularly Obi-Wan and the Clone Troopers. Maybe Ashoka will grow on me but so far I find her irritating in her know it all rebellious way.

As for the Tattoine episode... I loved the nostalgia of it. I felt a strange emotion seeing someone sitting in Han’s seat. I can not quite articulate it. The young bounty hunter, sadly I forget his name, did not annoy me as much as he has annoyed others. I do get a little confused about what planet folks are on at times because I thought Jawas only lived on Tattoine but they keep popping up in different episodes.

I can criticize something, acknowledge its flaws and still enjoy it without sucking out the joy. I just prefer not to give a free pass on something just because I like part of it. Things rarely get better without honest critique.

It does make me wonder how much is Faverau and how much is Filoni. Or how much it is them bringing in folks like Waititi. The banter of the Biker Scouts and jokes from Greef Carga struck me as MCU style humor. It makes sense that looks would want to continue the successes of the MCU.

Fair point on Star Wars being Space Opera instead of Sci-Fi. I think it still requires a consistent universe to avoid breaking immersion but it does not need the same foundation that say Star Trek requires. I think that may be way there used to be a bigger divide between Star Wars and Star Trek fans.

The opening scene for A New Hope is cinematic genius in my opinion. That is exactly the kind of magic that things like camera angle and music bring to cinematography and make it more than just simply point and click camera work. It is visual story telling without dialogue, storytelling that sets a framework into the mind of the viewer. The political situation of the Rebellion and the Empire is almost instantly established without the need for long exposition dialogue. This is what I mean about something looking simple but actually being quite complex.

I am a big fan of practical effects and attention to detail in set design. Mandalorian seems to take an approach like Bladerunner when it comes to depth of detail on set design.

Plot armor is a thing most shows can not avoid. However everything I hear someone go on about how stormtroopers could not shoot themselves in the head because they would miss it runs contrary to the plot point of Obi-Wan knowing Tusken raiders did not kill the Jawas that had R2 and 3P0. It makes what are supposed to be sinister villains comedic mooks.

But why it really bothers me is that people start to believe it because it is said so often and because people want to believe it, even when it is demonstrably false. This is sadly true of more than just cinema tropes. This just happens to be a relatively harmless example of what in other cases can prove to be terribly destructive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFQ9uO4GxkQ

We are all entitled to like what we like. It you like BIG Force application, fair enough. I do not. It reminds me of power creep in a D&D campaign. To me the ability to choke someone without touching them is already quite big enough. But then I prefer level 1-3 adventures to 9-12.

I enjoy good, thought provoking plot in all my mediums... be it books, movies or tabletop gaming. I prefer narrative gaming to competitive number crunching for example. If that plot has explosions and laser swords, all the better.

As for trilogy fatigue, yeah I am feeling that as well. Single stand alone films in the Star Wars universe are fine by me.

But I do not find the original trilogy mindless. Are they space fairy tales? Sure. King Arthur in Space? Of course. That does not in my opinion make them by necessity mindless. Different versions of King Arthur have different things to teach. Nothing is truly mindless unless you are watching early morning static. How many of you remember that? What I find disappointing in some fans is being willing to accept just about anything as being good enough and telling others to be thankful we get anything.

EDIT: But let me add... I love that people are willing to engage in discussing this. I value all the opinions expressed, including those I disagree with. I realize I come across harsh at times... this is how I have come to be called a grumpy gnome. I have spoken.

[mcfonz]

I get that, I'm not trying to force people to like anything, it's just that not liking something is fine in it's own right. You don't have to have a deep reason for it for it to be justified. I struggled to like a number of films other people have seen. But they just don't hit a chord with me. Doesn't mean they don't with someone else.

I wasn't really trying to say that the originals were mindless, just no less mindless than the others. The problem always with original movies like that is authenticity and repetition. Repeat to many aspects and people will just feel it's a copied trope that offers nothing new. Try too much different and you end up with people feeling disconnected from the originals. You can see that with the prequels which were visually just far too different - though folks favourite bits tend to be the ones with the most familiarity like the pod racing.

A few folks on here know I work in a kids home with young folks. I actually connected with Rise of Skywalker a lot. But I felt it crammed in too much because of trying to undo the Last Jedi. Sorry if this spoils anything massively for anyone but I'll try not to.

The entire plot for Rey was complex and incredibly meaningful and mindful. I couldn't help but be reminded of the many, many young people I have worked with in the 13 years I have worked this job. Parents or grandparents who have done unspeakable things, and how it can be a weight upon you. Not knowing who your parents are/were and finding out.

When I compare it to Luke's plot in the original trilogy, I think whilst it has similarities there was actually much more emotional depth and exploration. Luke seemed inquisitive but naive. Apart from the fight in Empire, he never really accepted the evil of his father. There was no real acceptance that his father had done unspeakable things that perhaps could never be forgotten. He was convinced his father had good in him yet and he could turn him back to the light side. Yes he ultimately succeeded but there was always a bit of a disconnect there for me, and Luke was never my favourite character for that reason. He was too dismissive, he didn't carry that sense of guilt, almost arrogance at times.

Rey you can see utterly bears it. She is more fearful of her responsibility, distrusting. I really do prefer her overall character if I am honest. I think Rise of actually represents disappointment in other ways. I think it's the first time we start to see the relationship between Poe, Finn and Chewie show the glimpses of the sort of silliness we saw with Han, Luke and Chewie. The swashbuckling running about with blasters, wise cracks and the back and forth.

As for the force bit at the end. He had just absorbed a lot of power. At that point it made me think of a necromancer, or a vampire and how they have been depicted of drawing power from the living to keep them alive and even give them more power or energy to do even greater things. And it didn't kill. It was more like an EMP.

[Hammers]

It's fucking aces!!!

(just watched Episode three on Friday  )

No it isn't. It's arse warts.

[OSHIROmodels]

No it isn't. It's arse warts.

So are you 

[Grumpy Gnome]

I get liking something and not really understanding, intentionally or otherwise, why. I like plenty of things that are technically or even artistically poor. Buckaroo Bonzai immediately comes to mind.

For me A New Hope is somewhat simplistic compared to the rest of the franchise. I do not think that makes it mindless and more than that I think complexity does not necessarily equate with deep thinking. It is rather black and white, naively good and evil compared to the rest of the franchise. My love for the franchise has slowly declined since Empire Strikes Back, which echoes the author of the article I shared above.

When I was young much of what I consumed was black and white morality tales, so antiheroes appealed to me. The Man with No Name. Punisher. Mack Bolan. But as I have grown older and found media inundated with antiheroes, cynicism, and dystopia I find myself craving more Captain America, Luke Skywalker, John Wayne naive optimism. Perhaps it is a reflection of our contemporary society but I am tired of bitterness, snarkiness and disappointment.

I can not explain why I feel like the Mandalorian feels hopeful. Maybe it is in scenes like an IG unit telling our protagonist that he can tell that he is sad. The sacrifice that then comes feels hopeful as we watch our protagonist has gone from blind, bigoted hatred to empathy for another being. And yet Mandalorian is not perfect in this because it is countered with the senseless disintegration of Jawas. The same Jawas who then respond to deadly violence with stunning instead of killing our protagonist. Of course you could argue that them sparing him is exactly what makes it feel hopeful. Either way it feels so very different from Star Trek Discovery or Picard which seem to revel in glamorizing moral shades of grey and the end justifying the means.

But maybe I am full of pretentious crap, because I can not really articulate why I love the Mandalorian but loathe Last Jedi when I try to dissect it. I seem able to forgive some things but not others. The jokes of Greef Karga work for me but the ones of Poe Dameron to Hux do not.

Rey is a more likable character than Young Luke in general. She whines less for sure. Much as I hated Last Jedi I certainly identified with grumpy old Luke. As a former Idealist who has become bitter about my inability to change the world it was like watching myself on screen. Maybe that was why the milking scene disturbed me so much.

Whilst I see some plot holes in Mandalorian there just was not any scene that made me groan like the films of the last trilogy. Solo and Rogue One felt like they missed some opportunities to be better but the last trilogy movies killed the franchise for me... until Mandalorian brought it back like a necromancer. *wink*

[CookAndrewB]

To be fair to the Storm Troopers, you can both miss a lot and be a formidable foe all the same. I doubt any soldier in the Civil war felt their adversary to be laughable just because there were a lot of missed shots on the whole. Likewise, in both World Wars, nobody approached something like a 1-shot/1-kill ratio. That never made a single death less tragic, nor did it make a pretty bad KDR (to co opt a video game idea) laughable. Yes, of course the Storm Troopers kill some folks. I think the humor, again not relegated to Star Wars alone, is how reliably they miss the heroes in fairly straight forward situations. You might forgive, and believe, missing one particular person on a field of battle such as Hoth. But for a squad of troopers chasing people down a hallway, you would hope someone (Stormtrooper or otherwise) could be expected to halt and aim their weapon with some bit of accuracy.

Maybe the better criticism is to accuse Stormtroopers of having little discipline in battle; breaking cover, firing from the hip while at a run, etc. Again, I'll go back to video games as a better representation of my vision of Star Wars where you have a game like Republic Commando, which shows a SPECOPS level of discipline and execution in combat. Though, I suppose clone troopers were always given more of a nod in terms of being formidable.

I would be all in on a BIG force battle against specops level storm troopers. Then I think you get something more like the Matrix (first), where you can have someone "chosen" who is also threatened by an adequate opponent. I'd be all for that, or I can also love it the way it is even if the New Hope Darth Vader/Obi Wan lightsaber duel is less action packed than two pensioners poking a biscuit around the table with their canes 

I, like Grumpy, appreciate the discussion.

Also, Buckaroo Banzai is good stuff.