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Author Topic: Help with some WOTR livery colours and badges  (Read 546 times)

Offline Osmoses

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Help with some WOTR livery colours and badges
« on: November 19, 2019, 07:22:48 PM »
Does anyone know the livery colours and any badges for these? All WOTR around 1461.

Ralph Neville Earl of Westmorland
Ralph Greystoke
Henry Fitzhugh

I know Greystoke's badge was a white ragged staff, but that's all.

Online dadlamassu

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Re: Help with some WOTR livery colours and badges
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2019, 08:03:02 PM »
My brother, a medievalist, says he finds this useful: 
https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2018/09/war-of-roses-livery-colours-database.html

And this book
https://www.vexillia.com/common/shop_books.html#2_3

The Blurb
Standards, Badges & Livery Colours
Still the best work on the subject for wargamers
This 1992 book details the livery colours of many key personalities of the Wars of the Roses as well as illustrating many of the distinctive standards of the period. 50 page volume. A5 and card bound.
   
£10.00 each.
Explanations of standard & liveries.
117 standards described.
36 standards in full colour.
37 badges with black and white illustrations.
68 mottoes listed.
Bibliography.
Flags available separately.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 09:34:45 PM by dadlamassu »
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Offline Osmoses

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Re: Help with some WOTR livery colours and badges
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2019, 08:35:56 PM »
Yes, I've checked those. I suspect that the colours are not known, but someone here may have some information, or has plausibly reconstructed them.

Offline Atheling

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Re: Help with some WOTR livery colours and badges
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2019, 09:07:48 PM »
Yes, I've checked those. I suspect that the colours are not known, but someone here may have some information, or has plausibly reconstructed them.

The Lance and Longbow Society is your friend in this (Scroll down to Pub 04, Standards, Badges and Livery Colours of the WoR):

https://lanceandlongbow.com/shop.php

Offline bluewillow

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Re: Help with some WOTR livery colours and badges
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2019, 09:47:39 PM »
all I have

Ralph Neville Earl of Westmorland
Seal


The armorial wax seals of Ralph de Neville, Earl of Westmorland and Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland from a certificate of service for John de Stryvelyn for service in 1341, in the Scottish March

Only mention I have of Neville livery is "40 yards of white and red cloth"
From 1420 expedition of his father in France.
The Clothiers’ Century, 1450–1550

Ralph Greystoke


Yet to find the full reference, but in my notes a black ragged staff on a yellow feild, from
A List of Printed Original Materials for  English Manorial and Agrarian History" (Badcliffe College Monographs, no. 6 ; by F. G. Davenport, 1894)

Henry Fitzhugh
Zip! Nil
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 11:24:12 PM by bluewillow »
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Offline Osmoses

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Re: Help with some WOTR livery colours and badges
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2019, 12:02:17 AM »
Thanks.

I guess a black bull would be a reasonable guess for a badge for Ralph Neville, same as his brother, John. John Neville's livery was black and red  so maybe red and white would be good for Ralph.

Freezywater has Fitzhugh's badge as a blue wyvern or a yellow goutte.

Freezywater has a white ragged staff for Greystoke. I can't find the reference in "Printed Original Materials for  English Manorial and Agrarian History" though.

Offline pete17

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Re: Help with some WOTR livery colours and badges
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2019, 12:31:25 PM »
Here's what I have:

Ralph Nevill

Livery red and white
Badge a white bull's head with green horns, Ducally crowned (Earls coronet) and gorged Or, there appears to be variations with one having the horns tipped gold.

Ralph Greystoke:

Livery blue and white
Badge a white ragged staff, crest turned ermine, black staff with a white dolphin?

Henry Fitzhugh

Livery not known
Badge in 1425 a Goutte Or and possibly used a griffon badge

cheers, Pete


Offline Osmoses

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Re: Help with some WOTR livery colours and badges
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2019, 02:09:18 PM »
Thanks. Do you know where you got the blue and white reference for Greystoke from?

Offline pete17

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Re: Help with some WOTR livery colours and badges
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2019, 06:54:13 PM »
Hi, it's from Heraldic Badges in England and Wales  by Michael Powell Siddons, he doesn't say where the reference is from however give th efollowing ' on th epoint of a helm, with mantling barry Argent and Azure, a fish like a dolphin Argent fron tr: Smith's Ord., fol.44v.

Incidentally, I was at Brancepath Castle and church last week and should have took some pics for Sir Ralph.

hope this helps, cheers Pete

Offline Osmoses

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Re: Help with some WOTR livery colours and badges
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2019, 09:05:23 PM »
Yes thanks, that's great. The Siddons books are a bit out of my price range!

Offline pete17

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Re: Help with some WOTR livery colours and badges
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2019, 12:43:14 AM »
Aye, they're not cheap I was lucky and picked up the 4 volume set brand new for £45 a couple of years ago, cheers

Offline Atheling

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Re: Help with some WOTR livery colours and badges
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2019, 07:22:31 AM »
Yes thanks, that's great. The Siddons books are a bit out of my price range!

Mine too but I would say that they were almost essential! I'm going to have to seek them out at a 'reasonable' price.

Offline Atheling

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Re: Help with some WOTR livery colours and badges
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2019, 07:24:30 AM »
Aye, they're not cheap I was lucky and picked up the 4 volume set brand new for £45 a couple of years ago, cheers

£45!  :'( :'( :'(

:)  ;)