Questions about the 100 years war.

[Donkeymilkman]

Hi everyone,
I recently agreed with my friend if he would do a Viking invasion project, I would happily do a 100 years war project for us to wargame (I feel now I might have drawn the short straw). I purchased the Perry miniatures Agincourt French Infantry box set to use as both French, Burgundians and possibly Flemish. I wanted to know if they Burgundians have the same kind of "random uniform" attire, as the box shows art for the French, just with a red cross or if it was more different in any way with specific colours for uniforms, etc, etc? Reference pictures of figures or drawings of men would be mighty useful as my internet search and own research has partially confused me on the matter. Also, any help with how the Flemish would dress (?) for battle would be most useful as well. This is far from my natural habitat of The Napoleonic wars and 19th-century battles so laymen's terms are greatly appreciated.

Thanks for any help you can give,
DMM

[Charlie_]

The very short answer is they would have all dressed the same.

This is a long time before any real sort of military uniform.

However there are field signs and livery colours.
The former in the context of the 100 Years War is the red cross for the English and white cross for the French..... BUT I don't think there was any real uniform way of displaying it. The popular perception is that the English wore the red cross on white, but I don't know how true that was - perhaps later they did? The booklet in the Perry's English set shows red crosses on all sorts of colours, usually a little cross-shaped bit of fabric stiched on.
The French supposedly wore a white cross in the same way, and continued to do so for the rest of the century and beyond. However I think even more so than the English, there was never any uniform colour it was worn over. Later it seems different companies might have had their own livery colours, probably decided by their commander, or town if they were an urban militia... So you might see the white cross over various other colours.
As for the Burgundians, they did adopt the diagonal cross ('saltire') of St Andrew later on, I personally don't know if they had done so at this stage though? Certainly during the time of Charles the Bold, many decades later, they were using it prominently, and it remained an important symbol of 'Burgundy', and thus was used by the Hapsburgs (who essentially inherited the Burgundies territories after the death of Charles the Bold), and so later founds its way to becoming a Spanish symbol....

Personal livery colours of nobles' retinues were a thing, and are the subject of much study when you look at the Wars of the Roses in England. How widespread they were among the French at this time, I could not say.

My personal way of approaching it would be to paint them all in random colours, with an informal scattering of the appropriate crosses for the French, English and possibly Burgundians. But that's just my personal taste - I don't like things looking too uniform for this era.

The Perry booklets do show how the clothing of the French and English men-at-arms / knights did differ a bit - basically the English preferred their armour uncovered, whereas the French (and other Europeans) seemed to like a variety of somewhat outlandish coverings to their armour - sometimes, but certainly not always, displaying their heraldry if they had it. I imagine Burgundians and Flemish would be just the same in appearance as the French, and the 'lesser soldiers' of everyone would look much the same (with the exception that of course the English would be archers, whereas the Europeans would be more likely to be crossbowmen, spearmen, and others).

If I ever did this period, I think it would be a great opportunity to forget about uniforms and have all units being a riot of different colours. Could be a fun change if you're used to the 19th century?

[Barking Monkey]

Everything Charlie said is correct to the best of my knowledge (though I'm far from an expert on the 100yr war, most of the little I know about the period is from somewhat later.)  You won't be wrong painting your figures as he suggests. 

Having said that, if you WANT to go with a somewhat more uniform look there is some evidence to support that approach.  There is a view among some historians that some company captains (at that point a company was any unit commanded by a specific captain and might be 60 men or a thousand, some but by no means all were mercenaries) had their men wear attire of the same or similar colors.  You might want to do this for aesthetic reasons but it can also be useful on the wargame table.  If the rules you are using break forces down into specific units it can sometimes be difficult to distinguish where one unit begins and another ends in a battleline if they are all randomly attired. If you have a unit that has a predominantly, say, green color you can stick them in between two more randomly painted units to help both you and your opponent keep track of the different units.

[Atheling]

The very short answer is they would have all dressed the same.

This is a long time before any real sort of military uniform.

However there are field signs and livery colours.
The former in the context of the 100 Years War is the red cross for the English and white cross for the French..... BUT I don't think there was any real uniform way of displaying it. The popular perception is that the English wore the red cross on white, but I don't know how true that was - perhaps later they did? The booklet in the Perry's English set shows red crosses on all sorts of colours, usually a little cross-shaped bit of fabric stiched on.
The French supposedly wore a white cross in the same way, and continued to do so for the rest of the century and beyond. However I think even more so than the English, there was never any uniform colour it was worn over. Later it seems different companies might have had their own livery colours, probably decided by their commander, or town if they were an urban militia... So you might see the white cross over various other colours.
As for the Burgundians, they did adopt the diagonal cross ('saltire') of St Andrew later on, I personally don't know if they had done so at this stage though? Certainly during the time of Charles the Bold, many decades later, they were using it prominently, and it remained an important symbol of 'Burgundy', and thus was used by the Hapsburgs (who essentially inherited the Burgundies territories after the death of Charles the Bold), and so later founds its way to becoming a Spanish symbol....

Personal livery colours of nobles' retinues were a thing, and are the subject of much study when you look at the Wars of the Roses in England. How widespread they were among the French at this time, I could not say.

My personal way of approaching it would be to paint them all in random colours, with an informal scattering of the appropriate crosses for the French, English and possibly Burgundians. But that's just my personal taste - I don't like things looking too uniform for this era.

The Perry booklets do show how the clothing of the French and English men-at-arms / knights did differ a bit - basically the English preferred their armour uncovered, whereas the French (and other Europeans) seemed to like a variety of somewhat outlandish coverings to their armour - sometimes, but certainly not always, displaying their heraldry if they had it. I imagine Burgundians and Flemish would be just the same in appearance as the French, and the 'lesser soldiers' of everyone would look much the same (with the exception that of course the English would be archers, whereas the Europeans would be more likely to be crossbowmen, spearmen, and others).

If I ever did this period, I think it would be a great opportunity to forget about uniforms and have all units being a riot of different colours. Could be a fun change if you're used to the 19th century?

Pretty much so. I expect that the French, Germans, Italians used Livery colours and badges too.

It's a long and often complicated subject but if you stick to what Charlie has outlined above you won't go far wrong.

It all depends on how historically accurate you want to be? For example, if you're very specific about livery colours in certain retinues you won't be able to field them as filler for other units, given that you've decided to stick to what we know about liveries on the Continent. If so, you might find it helpful to stick to a certain battle or series of battles within a certain time frame. It's going to take time to research to get right.

Hope that makes sense(?). My Saturday morning coffee may not have taken effect as of yet

[Donkeymilkman]

Thanks, everyone, the help is much appreciated.
I think I'll go with what you three say and go for a random assortment of colour maybe with one or two colours being on each man in the unit, to construct continuity. I have a couple of other questions if anyone can help. In the figure box there's a trumpet gentleman (is he called a herold?), does he go with a specific type of unit, crossbows for example or was he common throughout ranks? What would you suggest about designs to put on the pavise shields for any of the countries?
Thanks,
DMM

[levied troop]

The Flemish are an interesting exception to the above.  Firstly they appear to use a weapon fairly unique to them (or at least more common) - the plancot or goedendag, a spiked club being carried by some of the men here:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-J_E7H3L5PoA/T_w6YeSMz9I/AAAAAAAAAUQ/5-2Txk6BAQ4/s1600/1302.png

Secondly they may also have dressed in a more uniform colour based on guild coats of arms, as above. The colours would have varied according to guild and some of the near-contemporary illustrations show multiple different banners being carried within the same guild so I don’t think it’s very precise as to what they would have worn. But if you prefer a more uniform appearance then Flemish is the way to go.

For some pavise designs for the French see the transfer ranges:
https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/product-category/28mm-transfers/perry-miniatures/100yw/

[Donkeymilkman]

Thanks for the help levied troop. I like the idea of doing the flemish in the yellow more uniformed look. It'll give me a chance to practise with green stuff as well! Do you happen to know if Little big man studios Burgundian transfers are suitable for the hundred years war?

DMM

[Charlie_]

It looks like their Burgundian ones are designed for the pavises from the Wars of the Roses range.... the ones in the Agincourt range (in the plastic French infantry box) are a different size and shape.
And actually I don't think the ones linked above would fit them either, as they are in a variety of different shapes. I think maybe they were designed for the metal pavises that the Perrys released for this range many years ago - the plastic French set you've got is relatively new, the metal Agincourt range is from years ago.

Also, the artwork of Flemish troops posted above... I don't know where it's from, but it does seem to depict troops from an earlier period. 14th century rather than 15th, early 14th at that, possibly pre-100 Years War. So quite possibly 100 years before the Agincourt period.
The Perry range is dated for 1415-1429, which is really just a small period of time in a war that was actually more than 100 years! But an interesting period - obviously it covers the famous Agincourt campaign, and many other interesting campaigns and battles that followed culminating in the siege of Orleans, where things first started going well for the French (i.e. they stopped losing battles and started winning).

[Donkeymilkman]

Cheers Charlie,
As I think I've made very clear I know minimum on the topic so, I appreciate the help. I'm not worried about the figures being out of date a little here and there, after all, it's my ruff introduction into having a go at this period. I'm sure with 116 years of fighting no one will notice by the end . I just bought the box because of the cheapness of the figures to get started with the project. Saying that having spent most the day just trying to get one crossbowman nice and ready (which I'm still not happy with). I think I'll begin by painting up 12 figures, 6 figures for each side and start from there, maybe with a point system to fill up the ranks over time, eventually being able to do a large battle or campaign. I'm feeling it might be the right time to invest in some new brushes!  Any more advice is of great use.
DMM.

[levied troop]

The illustration of Flemish troops depicts the battle of Coutrai, 1302, so slightly outside the 100YW but the French chronicler Froissart gives uniform colours for the Flemish at the battle of Roosebeke in 1382, which are quoted as follows:

Ghent - blue and yellow (possibly horizontal stripes)
Almost - Black bend on red
Grammont - White chevron on blue
Coutrai - Paly of green and blue (paly refers to a stripe running down the centre of the shield).
Bruges - fess chequy of black and white - this shield shows what fess chequy is:
http://www.baronage.co.uk/bpgif-03/stewart/stewart3.gif
but it’s not clear what the background colour of the shield is, possibly red or blue.
Damme - Red and white quarterly
Sluys- Blue with a red quarter.

There are a couple of other sources, the Coutrai chest and the Leugemeete (a fresco), that support this and provide a couple of coats of arms for the guilds. Having had another look at these and Ian Heath’s Armies of the Middle Ages, I’m thinking that the ‘uniform’ colours referred to the town and that the multiple banners carried by the troops were the various guilds.

And yes, the LBM transfers fit the metal pavises rather than the plastic ones. But they do give an idea of the designs of these shields - perhaps a simplified version might be achievable in paint?

[Donkeymilkman]

Thanks for the more useful information levied troop.
DMM

[Griefbringer]

As for the Burgundians, they did adopt the diagonal cross ('saltire') of St Andrew later on, I personally don't know if they had done so at this stage though? Certainly during the time of Charles the Bold, many decades later, they were using it prominently

If I recall correctly, the Burgundians had adopted the (red) saltire by 1412, so should be fine if you are gaming the Agincourt to Orleans period or slightly before.

As for the French, the urban militias may have worn the colours of their town somewhere - for Paris militia (which fought on various sides at different times) these colours would be red and blue.

[HappyChappy439]

If I recall correctly, the Burgundians had adopted the (red) saltire by 1412, so should be fine if you are gaming the Agincourt to Orleans period or slightly before.

Yup! They seem to adopt it from about 1411 onwards (we get a peace agreement with the Armagnacs  where the Dauphin Louis mandates that nobody is allowed to wear it, or the white 'bend'/knotted-branch for the Armagnac faction, in 1413 too!...naturally that didn't stick for very long)

As a heads up the saltire of Duke John or Duke Philip's era was *not* the knotted cross from Duke Charles, but was just a 'smooth' cross.

If it helps, Duke John and Duke Philip maintained a small force (about 25 men) of 'archers du corps' as a personal guard, and also for espionage too! As far as I can tell they're fairly unique in that they actually *do* wear livery colours! For colours there, ordered left-to-right or top-to-bottom:
Duke John: 1403-1408 White-Green
1408-onwards Black-white-green

Duke Philip: 1419-1423 Black (as a sign of mourning)
1424-1433: Blue-White
1433-1467: Black-Grey

From a Burgundian perspective, other than Urban Militias which were liveried after their city/guild, or Flemish Militias with their coloured hoods/hats, most rank-and-file infantry, or men at arms wouldn't wear a 'fixed' livery. Ghent rather infamously had their white hats, and Bruges where they wore a letter B, and had different hats for different units, blue hats for artillery and archers/arbalesters with red hats. In most cases you should be fairly free to give a range of colours for the infantry, and then distinguish them with banners, or coats of arms for knights/men-at-arms!

From what I've seen, red is a very popular colour among Burgundian coats of arms, so it's a fairly safe bet! Duke John's personal banners were crimson, with a gold "Rabot" carpenter's plane, and his partisans wore the rabot as a badge as well, if that helps!

The University of Poitiers has (with the help of google translate, because my French is pretty...stumbling) some good information about the devises! http://base-devise.edel.univ-poitiers.fr/index.php?id=1500

[Donkeymilkman]

Thanks very much for the info Happy Chappy and Griefbringer.