*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 01, 2020, 09:44:49 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Donate

We Appreciate Your Support

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 1396137
  • Total Topics: 98405
  • Online Today: 320
  • Online Ever: 1409
  • (January 16, 2020, 09:05:58 PM)
Users Online

Recent

Author Topic: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?  (Read 995 times)

Offline Stuart

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 749
    • Army Royal
Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2020, 07:22:05 AM »
@happychappy Dixmuide was the starting point for all this yep

Offline Atheling

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 7305
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2020, 08:35:02 AM »
Hi mate,

Where is Morley?

It might be on one of the three Heraldic Banners of the Wars of the Roses booklets I have but I will need the name of the county as this is how the books are indexed(?)

No luck.

The best the Heraldic Banners of the Wars of the Roses can do is Thomas Lovell (fought at Bosworth).

Arms- Argent a chevron Azure between 3 squirell segant Gules a crescent Or for difference on the bend.

Sorry mate.

Offline pete17

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 70
Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2020, 08:17:12 PM »
This is what I have:

' the heading is headed 'My Lord Morley'. The last Lord Morley, d 1442, his daughter married William Lovel, styled Lord Morley  d 1476. their son Henry d.1489 and his sister and heir marries William Parker who was living in 1504 and recognised as Lord Morley in 1520.

Morley arms:
A beast Argent, head of a hound, forelegs with cloven hooves Or, hind part and tail of lion, main and tip of tail Or, two short smooth pointed forward curved horns Or, collar, chain and ring Or. Livery colours red, fringe red and green.

cheers, Pete

Offline Breazer

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 523
    • Breaz Brushes
Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2020, 09:04:02 AM »
Not really helping, just wanted to say I think its great how you go about working this all out to make sure everything is as acurate as can be. It's nice to witness  ;)

Offline Atheling

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 7305
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2020, 10:27:03 AM »
Not really helping, just wanted to say I think its great how you go about working this all out to make sure everything is as acurate as can be. It's nice to witness  ;)

It's always satisfying to get things as right as possible with Late Med. stuff. Stuart is a master at this  8)

Offline Breazer

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 523
    • Breaz Brushes
Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2020, 11:26:22 PM »
It's always satisfying to get things as right as possible with Late Med. stuff. Stuart is a master at this  8)
I follow his blog for quite some time now and I always love the work he puts in! I'm curious to see this future miniature appear there!

Offline Stuart

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 749
    • Army Royal
Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2020, 07:19:30 AM »
ĎSo with that in mind, I'd assume that our Henry Morley would probably combine a quartered Lovell/Holand, with the black-on-white crowned lion of Morley.í

Would that be just a case of splitting the arms down the middle or overlaying the Lion on top of the Lovell/Holland arms?


Offline Stuart

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 749
    • Army Royal
Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2020, 07:21:58 AM »
In the same way the 1st viscount Lovell (of Stoke fame) has done here with the Morley lion?

Offline Stuart

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 749
    • Army Royal
Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2020, 07:24:06 AM »
I also found Graham Turner had this painting of Lovell which I wasnít aware of.

Offline HappyChappy439

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 391
Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2020, 07:21:17 PM »
Hi again!

I've been doing a bit more digging to try and work out how the arms would be laid out, and also to work out the relationship between our Baron Morley, and Francis Lovell.

So it looks like Francis Lovell (Viscount Lovell, Richard III's 'dog') is Henry Lovell's cousin, where the family splits into the main Lovell branch, and the Morley branch after the 7th Baron Lovell.

I've put together a (slightly scruffy, sorry!) family tree for the Barons Lovell, up to the 2nd Baron Lovell, just to make some more sense of the inheritances and components of the coats of arms:



I've put the Barons Lovell in orange, and Barons Morley in blue for convenience!

So for Francis Lovell's coat of arms, where he inherits the titles of Baron Lovell and Baron Holand from his father, he keeps their components in his arms in the first and third quarters in the top-left and bottom-left respectively. He later inherited the title of Baron D'eyncourt (Deincourt), and Baron Grey of Rotherfield from his grandmother, so her arms are in his second quarter at the top-right (Deincourt) and fourth quarter at the bottom-right (Grey). The escutcheon in the middle of his arms with the crowned lion is for his ownership of Acton Burnell Castle inherited from way back from when the 2nd Baron Lovell married the heiress of the castle from the Burnell family.

(and here's the arms for ol' Francis Lovell, for reference)


(Hopefully I explained that ok! 150-year spans of feudal inheritance are a bit of a mess!)

So while Francis as the head of the senior branch of the family got most of the titles, his uncle William did not. So we can assume that (to start) William Lovell used a quartered Lovell/Holand coat of arms:


Then marrying the heiress of the Morley family, he would have been entitled to take her coat of arms (the crowned black lion on a white field) into his own. My understanding is that as husband, he would be able to modify his arms by adding the Morley arms as an Escutcheon in the middle of his own coat of arms (I've hastily put together a mock-up in MS Paint!)



So their heirs, our Henry, and his sister Alice, having inherited their mother's title of Baron(ess) Morley would now be entitled to quarter their father's arms with their mother's. So I think it would look something like this (again sorry for the hasty MS Paint recreation!):



Admittedly a lot of this is just speculation, in between the family tree, reverse-engineering Henry Parker (10th Baron Morley)'s coat of arms, and using this link from the Heraldry Society around priorities for quartering arms:
https://www.theheraldrysociety.com/articles/quartering/

Hopefully it's helpful and not too chaotic though!


Offline Charlie_

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1115
Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2020, 07:45:13 PM »
Wow, great work!

So are you saying the Morley black lion and the black lion on Francis' arms are different?

I was going to ask, why would Francis have the Morley lion, especially if Baron Morley was still alive?

Offline HappyChappy439

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 391
Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2020, 07:53:37 PM »
Wow, great work!

So are you saying the Morley black lion and the black lion on Francis' arms are different?

I was going to ask, why would Francis have the Morley lion, especially if Baron Morley was still alive?

Yup! Rather confusingly both the Burnell family and the Morley family have a crowned Black Lion on a white field as their coat of arms! So while Francis got the Burnell one, Henry got the Morley one. I guess it was just a popular choice!


Offline Stuart

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 749
    • Army Royal
Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2020, 08:11:37 PM »
Wow thatís some excellent reasoning right there, thank you very much  :)

English heraldry just goes bonkers in this period and on - leading to some painting challenges, itís a good job heraldic barding was no longer a regular feature !

The French seem to be far less precious about displaying all of their lineage.

Thanks very much, I really appreciate it.

Stuart