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Author Topic: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?  (Read 822 times)

Offline Stuart

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Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« on: January 26, 2020, 08:23:37 PM »
I’m drawing a blank trying to find the heraldry for this chap.

Can anyone help?

Thanks very much

Stuart

Offline Atheling

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Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2020, 09:29:59 PM »
Hi mate,

Where is Morley?

It might be on one of the three Heraldic Banners of the Wars of the Roses booklets I have but I will need the name of the county as this is how the books are indexed(?)


Offline Stuart

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Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2020, 09:45:44 PM »
Wiki; ‘Morley Saint Botolph is a small village in the English county of Norfolk. It is situated 4 km south-west of the town of Wymondham and 23 km south-west of the city of Norwich. The village name is normally abbreviated to "Morley St Botolph".

Offline Charlie_

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Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2020, 10:00:48 PM »
Oh, he's local to me then!

Offline Stuart

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Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2020, 10:09:38 PM »
Get searching those churches Charlie !

Offline Charlie_

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Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2020, 10:33:29 PM »
Look what we have here....

https://archive.org/stream/historyofhingham00upch/historyofhingham00upch_djvu.txt

HISTORY OF HINGHAM, NORFOLK, and its Church of St. Andrew

Quote
Their son, Henry Lovell, Lord Morley, married Elizabeth, daughter of Michael de la Pole. He was sent by King Henry VII., in 1489, to France to assist the Duchess of Brittany against Charles VIII. of France. He crossed to Calais at the head of 1,000 archers, at Calais he picked up another 1,000 archers, and marched to Dixmude. By this time artillery had begun to take part in war. The archers were ordered, when they saw the guns about to be fired, to throw themselves flat on the ground. Their leader, Lord Morley, sat still on his horse and was killed. With him the Morley family died out.

The Morley monument in the Chancel, to the careful observer, shows two lions rampant, that is, apparently standing on their hind legs, one of the lions has a crown on its head, the other has two tails. They are the arms of the Morley family and thereby hangs the tale of a celebrated trial. In mediaeval days every knightly family regarded its family arms as of the gravest importance. A knight might choose some device for his coat of arms, but no two families were allowed the same. In 1895 Sir John Lovell declared that the lions rampant on the Morley family coat of arms belonged to him, as heir of Lord Brunell and not to Sir Thomas Morley. Sir Thomas pleaded that the arms belonged to his ancestors from the Norman conquest. The case was brought before a Court of Chivalry at Calais.
 

Offline Stuart

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Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2020, 10:41:17 PM »
Excellent work Charlie!

Offline Stuart

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Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2020, 10:51:36 PM »
The monument has 6 shields, 2 of which are as described above, is it a case of just halving the arms?

Offline Charlie_

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Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2020, 10:55:33 PM »
Oh yes, you have better eyes than me - I'd found the pic but couldn't make out any shields at first.



I haven't been able to find if Henry himself is buried there, but it seems his sister Alice is.

Offline Charlie_

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Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2020, 11:10:37 PM »
There were some other Lovells a few generations on that were more prominent...
And several of them are buried here, their tombs with full colour coats of arms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Peter_and_St_Paul,_East_Harling#Tombs

And this Thomas Lovell was Chancellor of the Exchequer from 1485.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Lovell

But I can't work out how they are related to our Lovell. Could be distant cousins, and their heraldry might be completely different.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 11:13:29 PM by Charlie_ »

Offline Charlie_

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Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2020, 11:36:43 PM »
Another Lovell, who died in 1487.
His heraldry features a crowned lion - black on white.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Lovell,_1st_Viscount_Lovell

And an earlier Baron Morley who died in 1416 features the same lion, according to wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Morley,_4th_Baron_Morley

EDIT - Yes, the black lion is Morley.

EDIT - what have we here? His father, with heraldry? Though this page doesn't seem to recognise Henry, though it does his sister Alice...
https://gw.geneanet.org/lard?lang=en&pz=jean+charles&nz=terlinden&p=william&n=lovel
Lineage of Barons Morely, ending with our Henry's parents for some reason...
https://gw.geneanet.org/lard?lang=en&pz=jean+charles&nz=terlinden&m=RLM&i1=62570&t1=1&i2=62631&t2=2&lim=6

« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 12:00:56 AM by Charlie_ »

Online HappyChappy439

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Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2020, 11:54:28 PM »
Another Lovell, who died in 1487.
His heraldry features a crowned lion - black on white.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Lovell,_1st_Viscount_Lovell

And an earlier Baron Morley who died in 1416 features the same lion, according to wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Morley,_4th_Baron_Morley

Ah, the famous "Dog!"

And looking at the national archives the same lion crops up from Lord Morley at Crécy, so I guess the Lovells adopted that!



It also looks like the unmodified Lovel arms are "barry nebuly or and gules" (I've cropped this from Wikipedia, if anyone has a clearer version!), so I'd assume that'd feature *somewhere* too. (Though it could be that Henry's branch of the family chose not to use it. I'm hoping that the different spellings of Lovel and Lovell aren't two totally different families too, because that could complicate things a bunch!)



Looking at this link, it looks like the British Library has a manuscript with the coat of arms for Henry Lovel specifically (or at least the arms of "Lorde Morley" in the 1480s!) but unfortunately doesn't have an image on their website!

https://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/record.asp?MSID=5729&CollID=16&NStart=190210


If you don't mind me asking, are you looking into the Battle of Dixmude by the way?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 12:04:54 AM by HappyChappy439 »

Offline Charlie_

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Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2020, 12:11:36 AM »
It also looks like the unmodified Lovel arms are "barry nebuly or and gules" (I've cropped this from Wikipedia, if anyone has a clearer version!), so I'd assume that'd feature *somewhere* too




Ah, you got there the same time as me! See the last edit at the end of my last post.

Where did you get that image from on wikipedia though?



So I think we have....

Lovell

(Henry's father's arms)

Morley

(Henry's mother's arms - she was the heiress of the 6th Baron Morley, so Henry's father married her to become the 7th, and Henry was the 8th.)


The Francis Lovell  (d. 1487) I found earlier, whoever he was, had both of these in his arms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Lovell,_1st_Viscount_Lovell
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 12:17:21 AM by Charlie_ »

Online HappyChappy439

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Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2020, 12:24:21 AM »
Ah, you got there the same time as me! See the last edit at the end of my last post.

Hah I was too quick on the draw hitting the post button there!  lol

Where did you get that image from on wikipedia though?

I cropped it from a stained glass window which gets linked in the description page for Francis Lovel's coat-of-arms from the Order of the Garter. Interestingly it says that *his* crowned-lion-rampant is from the Burnell family rather than the Morley one, but it could just be that it was a popular motif:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Sir_Francis_Lovell,_1st_Viscount_Lovell,_KG.png


Edit: Done some more searching and looks like Henry Parker, 10th Baron Morley, our Henry Lovell's nephew has some more documented coats of arms:



Based on Charlie's research, we know the 2nd quarter is the Morley arms, and we can guess that the third quarter in that case must be the Lovell ones (from his mother, the Baroness), where Francis Lovell has the same white-on-blue lions going on as well

So with that in mind, I'd assume that our Henry Morley would probably combine a quartered Lovell/Holand, with the black-on-white crowned lion of Morley.

(Double Edit: Here's the armorial I got that coat-of-arms from: https://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00001647/images/index.html?seite=22 )
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 12:38:42 AM by HappyChappy439 »

Offline Atheling

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Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2020, 07:10:58 AM »
Stuart,

I'll check the books later on today for you.