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Author Topic: Short People  (Read 1397 times)

Offline marco55

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Short People
« on: February 02, 2020, 12:02:39 AM »
Looks like people shrunk for a couple of centuries. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/09/040902090552.htm   :o
Mark

Offline FifteensAway

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Re: Short People
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2020, 01:00:51 AM »
I wonder how asians feel about this.  Yeah, I know there are tall asians but generally they trend shorter.  Curious to hear from them.

Online carlos marighela

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  • Flamenguista até morrer.
Re: Short People
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2020, 01:15:11 AM »
Glup!

Amicalement Almond.
Em dezembro de '81
Botou os ingleses na roda
3 a 0 no Liverpool
Ficou marcado na história
E no Rio năo tem outro igual
Só o Flamengo é campeăo mundial
E agora seu povo
Pede o mundo de novo

Offline Atheling

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Re: Short People
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2020, 05:49:46 AM »
One word, nutrition.

It's not just about volume, it's about quality in terms of vitamins, proteins and the bio-availability of what you eat........

Offline Antonio J Carrasco

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Re: Short People
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2020, 10:42:10 AM »
One word, nutrition.

It's not just about volume, it's about quality in terms of vitamins, proteins and the bio-availability of what you eat........

Possibly, but the real question is: why in the Middle Ages had better nutrition than in later periods before the 20th Century? It is not like agriculture techniques were more developed in the earlier period, is it? The climate explanation looks compelling, but I am not that sure that it is the only one valid, or even the more important.

Offline OB

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Re: Short People
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2020, 08:33:03 PM »
Atheling is right.  It is about nutrition and a more equitable distribution of food resources. Consider the Bantam Regiments-poor nutrition in an advanced society.  Also some of the earlier crop yields were higher than the later ones.

As a rule of thumb the stronger centralisation became the worse the mass of the population ate.

Offline Atheling

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Re: Short People
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2020, 10:00:38 PM »
Atheling is right.  It is about nutrition and a more equitable distribution of food resources. Consider the Bantam Regiments-poor nutrition in an advanced society.  Also some of the earlier crop yields were higher than the later ones.

As a rule of thumb the stronger centralisation became the worse the mass of the population ate.

I've just look online for a reference to the general health of British soldiers during WWI and WWII but I can't find anything useful. (I'm probably too tired- Vappa).

I do remember reading that the British soldiers of both wars were found to be undernourished, now, that's not to say they were malnourished. But it's not a great place to start to build an army.

As OB said, it's down to the equitable distribution of food- which I admit, seems odd..... pottage anyone?  lol


Offline OB

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Re: Short People
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2020, 12:31:14 AM »
There's this on JSTOR 'Military Fitness and Civilian Health in Britain during the First World War'.  Between 40-60% of British recruits malnourished according to the precis. I think the study begins with the Boer War.  That was when the powers that be first became concerned.

Offline Atheling

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Re: Short People
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2020, 07:26:22 AM »
There's this on JSTOR 'Military Fitness and Civilian Health in Britain during the First World War'.  Between 40-60% of British recruits malnourished according to the precis. I think the study begins with the Boer War.  That was when the powers that be first became concerned.

That's the one I'm thinking of. It's kind of shocking in some respects but, without bringing politics into it, if you look at the social history at the time it's not all that surprising.

Offline levied troop

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Re: Short People
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2020, 07:37:16 AM »
In the ‘70’s I did an OU summer school. Part of the work was analysing the nearby Stoke-on-Trent from data and then getting a coach tour around the town, viewing each area to see if our conclusions from the data were borne out by visual evidence.  Halfway through the lecturer pointed out that virtually everyone we saw over 50 was considerably shorter than average, something we hadn’t found from the data, and he was quite right.  The attribution was down to both diet, availability of food and hard manual labour (Stoke being (just) a Potteries town).  Additionally, our further research back at the ranch drew the conclusion that better health care post-WW2 favoured an increase in average height.
The League of Gentlemen Anti Alchemists
(We Turn Gold into Lead)

Offline Atheling

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Re: Short People
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2020, 11:23:36 AM »
In the ‘70’s I did an OU summer school. Part of the work was analysing the nearby Stoke-on-Trent from data and then getting a coach tour around the town, viewing each area to see if our conclusions from the data were borne out by visual evidence.  Halfway through the lecturer pointed out that virtually everyone we saw over 50 was considerably shorter than average, something we hadn’t found from the data, and he was quite right.  The attribution was down to both diet, availability of food and hard manual labour (Stoke being (just) a Potteries town).  Additionally, our further research back at the ranch drew the conclusion that better health care post-WW2 favoured an increase in average height.

Which is to be expected, I think what we're asking is why the dip in average height for two centuries?

My guess is nutrition. It's a funny thing (I apologise to all Biologists out there for butchering this), in many cases you need certain nutrients to absorb other nutrients ; to act as a bio enabler. This can also effect the switching on and off of DNA from what I've gleaned.

Offline Condottiere

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Re: Short People
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2020, 02:56:33 AM »
Which is to be expected, I think what we're asking is why the dip in average height for two centuries?

My guess is nutrition. It's a funny thing (I apologise to all Biologists out there for butchering this), in many cases you need certain nutrients to absorb other nutrients ; to act as a bio enabler. This can also effect the switching on and off of DNA from what I've gleaned.
You're right about nutrition, as most had access to fresh or near fresh food prior to the increasing urbanization of the Industrial Revolution.

Food adulteration was an issue which contributed to undernourishment, like in the USA: The Poison Squad: The American People Had No Idea What They Were Eating. According to the documentary based on Deborah Blum’s book, European countries were reluctant to import food from the US in the late 19th Century, due to issues:

Quote
At the turn of the 20th century, American food producers could get away with putting just about anything in their food. And they did. Milk was full of chalk and formaldehyde. Canned food had salicylic acid, borax, and copper sulfate. Producers sold corn syrup as honey and colored lard as butter, and there were no laws or consequences to false labeling. Dr. Harvey Wiley, a chemist at the USDA, spent years researching mislabeled food, and realized that consumers had no idea what they were consuming and no one knew the long term effects of these additives. So he gathered “the Poison Squad,” a group of young men who voluntarily consumed poison so that Dr. Wiley could examine the effects. They became a pop culture sensation, inspiring poems and minstrel shows. And eventually, their work brought about the 1906 Pure Food and Drug Act, which led to the creation of the FDA.

Anyone recall Victorian Slum House? One episode had a re-enactor shopkeep adulterating butter with water or vegetable oil IIRC, so as to increase profits. When companies like Heinz came along offering standardized bottles of ketchup and other condiments and cans of baked beans, emphasizing the purity of their ingredients, their products became popular.   

Adulteration and Contamination of Food in Victorian England
Quote
to look back nostalgically and assume, for example, that the bread which formed the staff of life was home-baked, or, if bought, was wholesome and nutritional, is romantic nonsense. By the 1840s home baked bread had died out among the rural poor; in the small tenements of the urban masses, unequipped as these were with ovens, it never existed. In 1872 Dr. Hassall, the pioneer investigator into food adulteration and the principal reformer in this vital area of health, demonstrated that half of the bread he examined had considerable quanities of alum. Alum, while not itself poisonous, by inhibiting the digestion could lower the nutritional value of other foods.

The list of poisonous additives reads like the stock list of some mad and malevolent chemist: strychnine, cocculus inculus (both are hallucinogens) and copperas in rum and beer; sulphate of copper in pickles, bottled fruit, wine, and preserves; lead chromate in mustard and snuff; sulphate of iron in tea and beer; ferric ferrocynanide, lime sulphate, and turmeric in chinese tea; copper carbonate, lead sulphate, bisulphate of mercury, and Venetian lead in sugar confectionery and chocolate; lead in wine and cider; all were extensively used and were accumulative in effect, resulting, over a long period, in chronic gastritis, and, indeed, often fatal food poisoning. Red lead gave Gloucester cheese its 'healthy' red hue, flour and arrowroot a rich thickness to cream, and tea leaves were 'dried, dyed, and recycled again.'

As late as 1877 the Local Government Board found that approximately a quarter of the milk it examined contained excessive water, or chalk, and ten per cent of all the butter, over eight per cent of the bread, and 50 per cent of the gin had copper in them to heighten the color.

Contaminated Milk in Victorian Britain
Quote
Mother's milk provides the infant with immunity to micro-organisms to which the mother has already been exposed and which the infant is likely to encounter, and modern research has shown that 'feeding infants with human milk reduces the incidence of gastro-intestinal infections,' infections which. . . were a major cause of infant mortality throughout the nineteenth century. Cow's milk, on the other hand, was perhaps the most widely adulterated food in Victorian Britain. In 1877 a quarter of all the milk examined by the Local Government Board was seriously adulterated; in 1882 one-fifth of the 20,000 milk analyses made by the 52 county and 172 borough analysts was adulterated. Not until 1894 was the Local Government Board able to report that adulterated milk accounted for less than ten per cent of all samples.