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Author Topic: Neanderthals throwing spears?  (Read 11855 times)

Offline Duncan McDane

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Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2020, 04:18:12 PM »
Even Monkees throw with sticks so why wouldn't Neandertals do so in a slightly more sophisticated way? I wouldn't be surprised if they'd even used slings for throwing rocks, it's less difficult to discover than how to make a fire imho...
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Offline DivisMal

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Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2020, 05:40:42 PM »
Composite projectiles are quite sophisticated.

Monkeys may throw stuff at others, but the pinnacle of ape craft is an anvil stone. There is at least one orang utan who was raised by humans who was able to strike a flint tool, but otherwise even the simplest lithics (like pebble tools from homo habilis) are way beyond anything a monkey might reproduce.

Plus there is a huge cognitive gap between throwing stuff vaguely into the direction of other apes or a leopard to scare it away on the one hand, and hitting a fleeing horse with a wooden spear (that’s what they - erectus or Neanderthals - did in the case of Achöningen), on the other.

It requires imagination, planning and sophisticated communication. You actually need to imagine where the horse will be in the time it needs for your projectile to travel the distance to its target plus way better hand eye coordination.

Now the next step is to produce a projectile that includes a flint tip. This needs some form of glue (birch bark) and modifies the aerodynamics.

To my knowledge, we don’t have any use of slings in Palaeolithic (it should leave traces on the bones, even if we will never find the sling itself). All known weapons are hunting weapons, and thus a sling makes little sense.

We have good evidence of thrusting spears (Neanderthals), throwing spears/javelins (erectus or possibly also Neanderthals, s. above). More complex technology is still reserved to our own species (sapiens sapiens), namely spear throwers and finally bows (as well as hafted adzes, antler adzes.

Spears with flint tips are well documented for sapiens sapiens and possible for Neanderthals.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2020, 06:18:29 PM by DivisMal »

Offline Cat

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Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2020, 01:09:48 AM »
Where you referring to this?!

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/jan/11/caveman-neanderthal-makeup-spain

No (although that's a fun article).  My reference was to general appellation controlée (Champagne v. Sparkling Wine, etc.): real Neanderthals come from the Neander Valley!

Offline von Lucky

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Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2020, 09:14:04 AM »
/golf clap (I got that but not the step to champagne/sparkling). I will blame the fact I missed that on having a light cold this week.
- Karsten

"Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

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Offline NickNascati

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Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2020, 03:49:20 PM »
Let’s take this a bit further then.  Assuming that the introduction, of the atlatl changed the game, is it logical to think that the cro-magnon man would carry more than one javelin?

Offline von Lucky

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Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2020, 08:42:34 PM »
In my opinion (not backed up by any evidence) I would say initially not. I'd treat the two components as a single tool, as the spear thrower / atlatl was an improvement on the spear, like spear 2.0. Only when Apple opened stores in the valleys did Cro-Magnons buy extra accessories.

Offline Freelancer

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Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2020, 09:53:18 PM »
Well we can use Australian aboriginal cultures as an example of stone age technology used into the current era. The light wooden spears used in hunting were only effective in range and hitting force when thrown with a woomera (atlatl). A Luritja man from central Australia told me of his experience going to school where all the european kids thought he’d be great at javelin. He kept wacking the back of his head with the end of the javelin because although he was shown how to throw a spear as a kid, it wasn’t the same technique as a javelin, a light wooden spear needed a woomera to “launch” it. He also told me that traditionally a man would only carry 1 or 2 spears because: 1) Walking with more was heavy and cumbersome 2) if you missed a kangaroo with your first spear it was unlikely to hang around for you to get a second chance throw ( let alone a third) and 3) in a lot of Australian aboriginal cultures it was considered greedy to want to possess more than you need. I have read and heard this explanation from other sources too. So we could infer from this that other stone age nomadic cultures had a similar philosophy for similar reasons.

Offline NickNascati

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Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2020, 12:11:29 AM »
So it is logical then to ass7me a cro-magnon would probably carry two javelins.

Offline Freelancer

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Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2020, 12:53:12 AM »
Well ass 7 you is never logical, but yes probably carried 2.

Offline DivisMal

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Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2020, 10:04:22 AM »
I second freelancer. I have theown with both javelins and atlatls myself. The latter is way different (and in all respects superior): your throwing distance is less dependent on your strength and the technique is easier to master.

We sadly have neither pictures nor graves that give any evidence, so I would take the Australian evidence as a good model: they were not weapons of war and thus speed was more important to the hunter than endless barrages of javelins.

Maybe you can even make a game mechanism from that:
0-2 javelins — no movement penalty
3-5 javelins — movement’s halved?

Offline Freelancer

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Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2020, 12:28:16 AM »
I was just watching Ten Canoes. Arnhem Land tribes (Northern Australia) carrying 3 spears. The "payback" spear throwing scene had even more.
The movie is a great source for scenarios for Tribal (and Primeval). There is a scene where the warriors are discussing how to get back one of their stolen women (Night attack, Sneak raid when the men are out hunting, etc...).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLiJ5EhNKyo