Which version of Saga would work best for ahistorical Arthur?

[DivisMal]

Oddly enough, the Knights/Warriors of Chaos can be tied in with Arthuriana. Bryan Ansell has cited Frank C Pape as a big influence, and you can see the prototype of the Citadel chaos warrior in this Pape illustration for James Branch Cabell's Jurgen (I read it earlier this year - a bit of a slog, though you can see how it made a mark):

The figure in the horned helmet is actually a troll king, but the story of Jurgen involves Guinevere, the Lady of the Lake and Camelot. So the prototype chaos warrior is a sort of Arthurian villain. Full circle!

I still have to give Jürgen a try. Moorcock has also listed it under his influences if that isn’t enough!
That picture is ace. It’s all what I love about the slightly kitschy, neo-romantic fantasy pictures of days begone. The guy even has a Bronze Age sword, something I’ve come to appreciate very much after seeing endless superdupergrimdark serrated blades with appended morning stars!

If you really go for the old Citadel CWs, a great choice!, this would make the  inclusion of the odd Tom Meier model from his Arthurian range possible. Tempting!

I snapped them up likewise (in a Humble Bundle or DriveThru sale or something). They're brimming with great ideas, and the mass-battle supplement looks very interesting. I reckon our group will be ready for the Great Pendragon Campaign by the time our current campaign cumulates.

These days it seems I’ve lost my patience with most modern stuff that is sold as fantasy. Notable exceptions often go into the absurd: the French comic With Cloak and Dagger is simply magnificent!

Coming from Pendragon I’ve read the Once and Future King, nice, though I barely made it out of volume I, and then Mallory himself, which is actually pretty good once you get into the style and the knights regularly suffering from some imagined or real, but very slight, dishonors. It’s really a pity that this kind of fantasy is so rare.

Since you then have enough stuff to keep you inspired, I’ll just mention Fritz Lang‘s Die Niebelungen. It’s a silent film and I am not sure if you can find a good copy, but it’s visuals are just brilliant!

The other day, I picked up the new version of Song of Arthur and Merlin, which looks great and a lot fatter than it was (more scenarios, principally, I think). I'll only need to finish up a handful of figures to get that on the table (to be juggled with the current Mordheim project), and then some form of Saga looms. I reckon Saga would work well enough with two armies composed entirely of small hearthguard units; the battleboards make the difference.

I’ve been tempted to get it, but was a bit disappointed that it wasn’t just a second volume and I seem to have to pay again for a lot of stuff. More scenarios are great, but is it worth buying if you have the first edition?

[Hobgoblin]

Since you then have enough stuff to keep you inspired, I’ll just mention Fritz Lang‘s Die Niebelungen. It’s a silent film and I am not sure if you can find a good copy, but it’s visuals are just brilliant!

Yes, it's terrific! I saw the whole thing (all five hours or so) with live musical accompaniment about 20 years ago. The scenes with the dwarfs are amazing, and the fight with Fafnir is astonishingly gripping and bloody.

I've long wondered whether Tolkien ever saw it (was it shown in London or even Oxford?). The Huns are very orc-like (especially Etzel), and the Nibelungs' last stand in the Hunnish hall is like an early run of Helm's Deep (almost sub-human hordes swarming up ladders as Teutonic defenders beat them back). If Tolkien did see it, it's hard to imagine it wasn't an influence on LotR.

I’ve been tempted to get it, but was a bit disappointed that it wasn’t just a second volume and I seem to have to pay again for a lot of stuff. More scenarios are great, but is it worth buying if you have the first edition?

I can't find my PDF of the first edition, and its downloads aren't working on the Ganesha site, so I can't really compare. There seems to be much more to this one, but it's been a long time since I looked at the last version.

[DivisMal]

Last holiday, I’ve been starting to read Tolkien’s letters (great stuff btw). There isn’t so much, of course, that directly refers to his sources, but when the Hobbit was translated into German post 1933, he was actually asked by the publshing house whether he could prove his aryan heritage. His draft reply, which he send to his own publisher, and the answer are preserved, and what struck me, is that he not only gave them a little lecture on the true meaning of the term Aryan, listing his Jewish friends, he also ended with a statement that he was always proud of his German heritage, but that the Nazi government was succeeding in changing that.

So back to our question, I think, yes he saw it. The anti-German resentments, while certainly there, weren’t really suppressing international contacts in academia or ignorance of the art of the Weimar Republic. I actually cannot imagine that a professor for ancient German literature could have ignored it!

And, yes, I had the same impression when I first saw the Huns! They are definitely the archetype for his orcs. I never thought about Helm’s Deep and the end of the Burgundians. But it’s definitely there!
If I find a real proof in the letters, I’ll let you know.

[Galtisant]

When painting your Citadel knights of Chaos it maybe worthwhile giving some of them red armour. In many Arthurian romances the most important knights opposing the hero are often dressed in red or vermilion armour. I can think of three examples off the top of my head, but there are many more. These are in Chrétien de Troyes “Erec and Enid” and “Perceval”, and The Red Knight of The Red Launds who fought Sir Gareth (Malory book via chapter15).

Michael Pastoureau, who has written extensively on Arthurian heraldry, has commented that:  ”The color code was recurrent and meaningful. A black knight was almost a character of primary importance (Tristan, Lancelot, Gawain) who wanted to hide his identity; he was generally motivated by good intentions and prepared to demonstrate his valor, especially by jousting or tournament. A red knight, on the other hand, was often hostile to the hero; this was a perfidious or evil knight, sometimes the devil’s envoy or a mysterious being from the Other World. Less prominent, a white knight was generally viewed as good; this was an older figure, a friend of protector or the hero, to who he gave wise council. Conversely, a green knight was a young knight, recently dubbed, whose audacious or insolent behavior was going to cause great disorder; he could be good or bad. Finally, yellow or gold knights were rare and blue knights nonexistent.” (https://www.medievalists.net/2018/02/color-middle-ages/)

[Too Bo Coo]

I started but had to leave behind, a dual use Arthurian force for SAGA. I planned to use Invasions for non-magical Arthur, and Magic for the fantastic version. As a focus, I used the Bernard Cornwell books.

[Hobgoblin]

Last holiday, I’ve been starting to read Tolkien’s letters (great stuff btw). There isn’t so much, of course, that directly refers to his sources, but when the Hobbit was translated into German post 1933, he was actually asked by the publshing house whether he could prove his aryan heritage. His draft reply, which he send to his own publisher, and the answer are preserved, and what struck me, is that he not only gave them a little lecture on the true meaning of the term Aryan, listing his Jewish friends, he also ended with a statement that he was always proud of his German heritage, but that the Nazi government was succeeding in changing that.

Yes, I've read that extract. I must get hold of the letters at some point.

So back to our question, I think, yes he saw it. The anti-German resentments, while certainly there, weren’t really suppressing international contacts in academia or ignorance of the art of the Weimar Republic. I actually cannot imagine that a professor for ancient German literature could have ignored it!

You'd have thought that he'd have seen it if it was screened. But I just have no idea how widely distributed Lang's films were at that period.

And, yes, I had the same impression when I first saw the Huns! They are definitely the archetype for his orcs. I never thought about Helm’s Deep and the end of the Burgundians. But it’s definitely there!
If I find a real proof in the letters, I’ll let you know.

Great - thanks!

It's long occurred to me that you could show someone that bit of Kriemhild's Revenge and tell them that it was from a little-known early adaptation of The Lord of the Rings. I think they'd be likely to spot the problem in the chronology before the any inconsistencies in the visuals!

When painting your Citadel knights of Chaos it maybe worthwhile giving some of them red armour. In many Arthurian romances the most important knights opposing the hero are often dressed in red or vermilion armour. I can think of three examples off the top of my head, but there are many more. These are in Chrétien de Troyes “Erec and Enid” and “Perceval”, and The Red Knight of The Red Launds who fought Sir Gareth (Malory book via chapter15).

Michael Pastoureau, who has written extensively on Arthurian heraldry, has commented that:  ”The color code was recurrent and meaningful. A black knight was almost a character of primary importance (Tristan, Lancelot, Gawain) who wanted to hide his identity; he was generally motivated by good intentions and prepared to demonstrate his valor, especially by jousting or tournament. A red knight, on the other hand, was often hostile to the hero; this was a perfidious or evil knight, sometimes the devil’s envoy or a mysterious being from the Other World. Less prominent, a white knight was generally viewed as good; this was an older figure, a friend of protector or the hero, to who he gave wise council. Conversely, a green knight was a young knight, recently dubbed, whose audacious or insolent behavior was going to cause great disorder; he could be good or bad. Finally, yellow or gold knights were rare and blue knights nonexistent.” (https://www.medievalists.net/2018/02/color-middle-ages/)

That's very useful - many thanks! And yes, some red knights are definitely on the cards. Red as a signifier of the uncanny seems to be a bit of a thing across the various Arthurian sub-genres: the red ears of the Hounds of Annwyn, for example.

Oddly enough, I've just been thinking about painting up some old Vendel goblins to form units of levies in Saga (and because goblins/hobgoblins feature in both SAM and Pendragon). I want them to look 'folkloric' rather than Tolkienesque, and it struck me that the easiest way to achieve that look (and get them done quickly!) would be to paint all their clothing red. We tend not to paint 'suits' of clothing on medievalish miniatures, but I reckon it will look right: "out stepped a little man dressed all in red". And it'll have the added advantage of making them suitable minions for a red knight!

On that note, I might keep the Knights of Chaos more motley as generic pagans and find some suitably imposing historical types to paint as red knights (which would also solve the problem of cavalry for the baddies).

[DivisMal]

I have no idea either except that imdb and Wikipedia both list an international release in 1924. when I’m retired, I might go through newspaper archives in Oxfordshire to verify this…
Tolkien scholarship is a rewarding hobby!

[Hobgoblin]

If ever there were an image that screamed "orc-chieftain" ...

[DivisMal]

Yeah! Those huns are awesome orcs.
After our discussion I just watched a little on YouTube where you can find a relatively good version. It’s really aged incredibly well, and I might like it even more than Metropolis. The Nibelungs and the dwarfs are also very useful to get another image than the jolly beer-bellied little Scotsmen that seem to be everywhere nowadays.

Where is that image from, btw? I don’t get the message with the (modern) German flag and the map of Germany below.

[Hobgoblin]

I think it's from Amazon - I just did a search for "Etzel Kriemhild's Revenge" on Google.

[DivisMal]

Nevermind! I just had to watch the scene when the huns first fall upon their guests. It’s also an extremely well done mass-battle scene. And speaking about characters we need for our little collections: Kriemhild.

[Hobgoblin]

Yes, indeed! There must be a decent candidate or two out there.

And we need a Hagen too!

[DivisMal]

Yes, indeed! There must be a decent candidate or two out there.

And we need a Hagen too!

Definitely! When Games Workshop announced their Age of Sigmar silly me was really hoping they would release the „dark ages“ of the Old World full of Siegfrieds Sigmars, Kriemhilds and Hagen Tronjes!